Whats the point of Motors TV televising races with single figure entries?

[Al Weyman]

I was flicking through channels and came across Aston martin Owners Club live broadcast from Donington on Motors TV. I thought great I will have a bit of this and was amazed and disappointed to see the size of the grids sometimes as low as seven!!! So just what is the point of this?

It surely does AOC no good at all and is poor viewing for Motors TV reflected by the lack of adverising revenue and does Historic Motorsport or any Motorsport for that matter no good either.

Now I know Motors TV want paying to broadcast, I think CTCRC were quoted £5k and that was for a canned broadcast and not live and had to opt out but there was cracking viewing to be seen that would have made great TV so obviously AOC were paying handsomely for this. But what on earth is the point and how sort sighted of Motors TV to only broadcast those that are prepared to pay however poorly subscribed the grids are. I believe if they keep up this policy they will be the next channel to go under.

[robhollyman]

you have made the assumption that a small grid has a direct correlation with good TV.

yes, it may be crap to be stood on the banking watching 7 cars circulate a 2 mile track, but the beauty of TV is they can follow the close battles. i watched the entire program and thought it was great.

the beauty of historic racing is not just the racing its the cars which are the stars.

there were some amazing cars out over the weekend, including low drag e types, various DB's 4-5-6's, lightweights and even db4 gt's and a db4 gt zagato. there were some cracking tiger's. some amazing pre war cars too. most of these are pricless and are a privalage to watch. I won't even mention how nice the Porsche's were either .

Good wood Festival of speed is televised next weekend. there will be some nice cars too but the racing will be crap. are you going to begrudge them from showing that too?

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by robhollyman

Good wood Festival of speed is televised next weekend. there will be some nice cars too but the racing will be crap. are you going to begrudge them from showing that too?

Yes. Because the programmes they make are always more about the "celebrities" than the cars, more about the background than the racing, to the extent that it ain't worth watching!

IMO

[Colin McKay]

I'm curious why the HSCC have chosen to televise their September clubbie meeting at Brands rather than this weekend's big event - I'm sure the grids will be full at both events and the racing just as good, but what a shame the F1 and group C cars won't get a showing. It's not often you get a chance to see these cars in their natural environment, ie a GP circuit largely unchanged from the glory days. I'm sure the club needs to justify the cost to its members and isn't in the business of inspiring the public at large, but what a missed opportunity.

[99hjhm]

As an AMOC member, I can't believe the club payed for Motors TV.

I have not spoke to a competitor who wants ten minute races or TV coverage in 4000 countries nobody has ever heard of!

[p261brm]

I agree with much of the comment so far from both sides of the track,the one advantage of televising historic motor sport it might just promote some very welcome sponsorship, to perhaps allow a reduction in competitor expense at source. Lke Bernie and F1, Lord March and Goodwood most certainly give their sponsors value for money, and would agree that the broadcasting sometimes is more about promoting the event and not the racing. Does it matter if the end result is a more aware and wider audience and in consequence maybe of some benefit, and probably no harm?

[The SpeCTator]

AMOC meetings seem to have gone from one of the best to one of the worst in a very short time, such a shame and to broadcast it on TV seems a double wammy

[courageous]

the whole fan market outside of the top leagues is screwed.
Circuits don't promote as they get their money regardless
Organisors don't promote locally as they don't get any of the gate money

You won't search for "AMOC" or "Ma5da MX5" (for instance) on TV unless you are a hardcore fan (you certainly wouldn't -as a casual- assume it will be on TV)

Motors TV is so far up the channel listing that nobody is going to accidently flick onto it.

*TV for club/semi pro stuff is really just an extension of *photographers for hire - it is good for driver ego or private use but the general public are almost never going to see the fruits.



*No matter how much talent the people involved (often quite substantial)

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by 99hjhm

As an AMOC member, I can't believe the club payed for Motors TV.

I have not spoke to a competitor who wants ten minute races or TV coverage in 4000 countries nobody has ever heard of!

Thats the other thing I was going to mention, why 10 minute races?

[Thundersports]

I agree Mr Weyman I was astonished at the poor grids for a "live" TV broadcast I sat there embarrassed to be a follower of Historic Motor racing! Robhollyman either you made the decision to broadcast this meeting or paid for it as I assume you were watching another channel! The races I saw whilst flicking backwards and forwards were poor.

[tux]

Originally Posted by 99hjhm

As an AMOC member, I can't believe the club payed for Motors TV.

I have not spoke to a competitor who wants ten minute races or TV coverage in 4000 countries nobody has ever heard of!

It was the same for some of the CCRC when the Castle Combe meeting was televised.

[Al Weyman]

Why cant they just attend decent meetings which they knw will produce some exciting racing and dont charge the clubs and that way the viewer may get more interested meaning more viewers and better advertising revenues. Another advantage may mean the clubs that are producing the goods will get even better entries as sponsors will want their drivers to enter it really is a no brainer IMHO as I really do not understand the current policy. I dont subscribe to Motors TV and was watching at friend house but I tell you this and I hope they read it, this meeting never encouraged me to want to take out a subscription.

BTW yes there was a couple of decent two car scraps but that was more by luck than judgment because if one of those cars drove off into the distance or broke down like the pre war leader then that would be it, no depth of field to pick up the cudgel and provide the entertainment. AMOC may even have been a tad lucky on this occassion as it could have been even worse.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Why cant they just attend decent meetings which they knw will produce some exciting racing and dont charge the clubs and that way the viewer may get more interested meaning more viewers and better advertising revenues. Another advantage may mean the clubs that are producing the goods will get even better entries as sponsors will want their drivers to enter it really is a no brainer IMHO as I really do not understand the current policy. I dont subscribe to Motors TV and was watching at friend house but I tell you this and I hope they read it, this meeting never encouraged me to want to take out a subscription.

BTW yes there was a couple of decent two car scraps but that was more by luck than judgment because if one of those cars drove off into the distance or broke down like the pre war leader then that would be it, no depth of field to pick up the cudgel and provide the entertainment. AMOC may even have been a tad lucky on this occassion as it could have been even worse.

Ok a couple of things here

1, You assume that AMOC paid but I think not, from my limited knowledge of this type of thing, Motors TV coverage is dependant on deals that are also struck with the likes of the circuit and or advertisements specific to that airtime. It may very well be the case that Motors TV may have chosen that meeting, not AMOC chose MTV

2. As mentioned previously, the small grid may be a very good race....I remember a race with 8 cars once that had the world talking about it .....and they still do!!!

3 "the whole fan market outside of the top leagues is screwed.
Circuits don't promote as they get their money regardless
Organisors don't promote locally as they don't get any of the gate money"

Never a truer word spoken, indeed someone who knows how it works. Circuits promote only the stuff that is relevant fan based stuff, GP, BTCC, etc will always be promoted because the gates are good but they certainly wont promote a clubman event unless it works in their favour ....with the exception of ONE circuit and that is Castle Combe. Thier ethos is alot different because they DO promote locally and , in the times that I have clerked there...the fan base was GREAT also, the take up on the grid was also.

No one goes out to get only seven cars on a grid and when that broadcast was planned, who actually knew the grid by then?..organisers continue to be ever hopeful and as I have said before on this forum, no one is going to stand up and say "ohh by the way, my grids are crap "...that would be suicide wouldnt it? its why entry lists are kept locked away until the very last minute unless of course...you have a full grid.

I have said this before and some of you may know that I am working on and have suggested a "meeting of minds" as such so that organisors (I count myself as one) can meet and try and stop strangling each other with more and more series etc, depleating grids and clashing meetings, historic racing is growing in popularity, yet, if we continue down the path of new series after new series and clashing meetings because we all have to wait until Bernie has decided what he wants, closely followed by Alan (Alex Ferguson Man U ) C then deciding and telling the MSA (FA) what the rest of the motor racing world can do (ive put that in brackets because can you imagine the uproar if it were the case that Alex F manager of Man United was also appointed Chairman of the FA, the governing body he reports to? ...yet...its allowed in motorsport! anyway I digress, If we dont change if we dont work together ...we will end up killing the very thing we love so much.

[Al Weyman]

OK I hear what you say and I am prepared to have a wager with you that Motors TV wanted paying. Why would they make an exception for AMOC? Also as far as grids are concerned surely their last meeting would have been good indication of the suspected response especially on a circuit like Donington. Are you tryingto tell me Motors TV looked at the previous form then approached AMOC and said 'Hey you are doing good can we please televise your meeting live free of charge, we normally want at least £5000 but for you as you are racing Astons its free?' I think not. Every other series/championship even successful ones like DMN has had to pay them as I understand reading here and from personal experience. This is not a knock AMOC as I am sure they are doing their damndest as all clubs are its a dig at Motors TV BTW for their who pays the piper calls the tune attitude which I personally find very short sighted.

As for the Clubs vs Tracks thing and who keeps the gate this has been going on for years and as I have quoted once before I once asked a top official would you rather have 30 car grids each paying £100 or 10 car grids paying £150. His answer was ten cars at £150 as its less work for them and they dont get the gate anyhow so basically sod the spectator. Similar attitude MotorsTV are adobting with their viewing public prehaps instead of concerntrating on broadcasting the best club racing.

Hey I bet the BBC would love to get Bernie to pay them instead of the other way round, the whole concept seems very alien to me that you pay someone to broadcast your event. maybe it will catch on who knows Man U may end up paying Sky TV but somehow I doubt it.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

OK I hear what you say and I am prepared to have a wager with you that Motors TV wanted paying. Why would they make an exception for AMOC? Also as far as grids are concerned surely their last meeting would have been good indication of the suspected response especially on a circuit like Donington. Are you tryingto tell me Motors TV looked at the previous form then approached AMOC and said 'Hey you are doing good can we please televise your meeting live free of charge, we normally want at least £5000 but for you as you are racing Astons its free?' I think not. Every other series/championship even successful ones like DMN has had to pay them as I understand reading here and from personal experience. This is not a knock AMOC as I am sure they are doing their damndest as all clubs are its a dig at Motors TV BTW for their who pays the piper calls the tune attitude which I personally find very short sighted.

As for the Clubs vs Tracks thing and who keeps the gate this has been going on for years and as I have quoted once before I once asked a top official would you rather have 30 car grids each paying £100 or 10 car grids paying £150. His answer was ten cars at £150 as its less work for them and they dont get the gate anyhow so basically sod the spectator. Similar attitude MotorsTV are adobting with their viewing public prehaps instead of concerntrating on broadcasting the best club racing.

Hey I bet the BBC would love to get Bernie to pay them instead of the other way round, the whole concept seems very alien to me that you pay someone to broadcast your event. maybe it will catch on who knows Man U may end up paying Sky TV but somehow I doubt it.

Sorry I do not believe that EVERYONE has to pay Motors TV Al, in fact, im fairly certain that is not the case

Live television, although live itself, is booked MONTHS in advance because of the feeds needed for the streaming etc. Motors didnt just turn up that day and think "ohhh lets broadcast" equally they didnt book it the week before...as I said ...its booked months in advance.

see the link below, it was posted last OCTOBER and makes reference to THE CIRCUITS NOT the clubs Al, you are wrong about PAYING xxx

http://www.motorstv.com/sites/defaul...day%202011.pdf


Just to confirm, Motors gets most of its revenue from SUBSCRIPTION and advertisement

[andy97]

There are now so many channels to fill & not necessarily that many more advertisers willing to pay for the programmes, so if you want to be on TV on a minority interest channel you'll have to pay, I guess.

We also have to remember that is JUST club racing so why would it be on TV by right anyway? No one watches sunday league football, or village cricket or me playing golf on TV. In many respects, I think its just vanity. If you are willing to pay for your 10 minutes of TV exposure, fair enough. I'm not & think its a waste of good cash, particularly when racing is expensive anyway.

I really doubt that AMOC will get any more members out of it & I doubt that any of the racers will get any sponsorship return from it. Wonder what the business case for it was?

I have a rough idea what it costs to put on a meeting at Donington & financially its knife edge stuff, even when the grids are nearly full, so god knows what AMOC lost on this meeting. And yes, given that the average entry for Race 1 of each of the events was about 17 (I am assuming that all the entrants paid for all of the races, even though some of the grids were as low as 7, I think, on sunday) and there was Motors TV costs on top (& yes I am ssuming that the competitor had to pay in some way, or the club paid) I am assuming that they made a loss on the meeting. Wonder what the "polishers" (rather than the racers) in the club make of that?

Edited to add: Claire's link is interesting but it does state that it's funded by a "modest increase in entry fees", so it is paid for & not "free" from MotorsTV

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by andy97

There are now so many channels to fill & not necessarily that many more advertisers willing to pay for the programmes, so if you want to be on TV on a minority interest channel you'll have to pay, I guess.

We also have to remember that is JUST club racing so why would it be on TV by right anyway? No one watches sunday league football, or village cricket or me playing golf on TV. In many respects, I think its just vanity. If you are willing to pay for your 10 minutes of TV exposure, fair enough. I'm not & think its a waste of good cash, particularly when racing is expensive anyway.

I really doubt that AMOC will get any more members out of it & I doubt that any of the racers will get any sponsorship return from it. Wonder what the business case for it was?

I have a rough idea what it costs to put on a meeting at Donington & financially its knife edge stuff, even when the grids are nearly full, so god knows what AMOC lost on this meeting. And yes, given that the average entry for Race 1 of each of the events was about 17 (I am assuming that all the entrants paid for all of the races, even though some of the grids were as low as 7, I think, on sunday) and there was Motors TV costs on top (& yes I am ssuming that the competitor had to pay in some way, or the club paid) I am assuming that they made a loss on the meeting. Wonder what the "polishers" (rather than the racers) in the club make of that?

Edited to add: Claire's link is interesting but it does state that it's funded by a "modest increase in entry fees", so it is paid for & not "free" from MotorsTV

actually Andy...the WHOLE quote is...

"Funded through a modest increase in entry fees, there is no longer a reliance on organising

clubs and series sponsors to fund the cost of television

As a result of changes to the
format, race entry fees have been reduced for 2011 to an inclusive figure of either £275 or

£285 per double-header, depending on the venue"

so....erm......by the sounds of it, and here is another argument that pops up all the time, the "change in format" would have been more races...because they say that the entry fee was "reduced" for 2011

Im not saying it was "free" im saying AMOC didnt pay as a club for it, also, the technology as stated in the PDF shows that it now doesnt cost fortunes to broadcast live to the web (which is what this is and is then relayed via uplink to Sat)

[JimW]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

. . . some of you may know that I am working on and have suggested a "meeting of minds" as such so that organisors (I count myself as one) can meet and try and stop strangling each other with more and more series etc, depleating grids and clashing meetings, historic racing is growing in popularity, yet, if we continue down the path of new series after new series and clashing meetings because we all have to wait until Bernie has decided what he wants, closely followed by Alan (Alex Ferguson Man U ) C then deciding and telling the MSA (FA) what the rest of the motor racing world can do (ive put that in brackets because can you imagine the uproar if it were the case that Alex F manager of Man United was also appointed Chairman of the FA, the governing body he reports to? ...yet...its allowed in motorsport! anyway I digress, If we dont change if we dont work together ...we will end up killing the very thing we love so much.

Good luck with this Claire. If you manage to get even a small something agreed it will be a big step forward.

Regards

Jim

[andy97]

Fair enough Claire, but you made the point earlier that you didn't necessarily have to pay for Motors TV. It appears that you do. I accept that the entry fees have gone down since last year due to the different format but that means that the competitor could presumably have had the races even cheaper if it had not been broadcast.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by andy97

Fair enough Claire, but you made the point earlier that you didn't necessarily have to pay for Motors TV. It appears that you do. I accept that the entry fees have gone down since last year due to the different format but that means that the competitor could presumably have had the races even cheaper if it had not been broadcast.

Andy, I said, depending on who you are is if you pay or not and I stick by that.

As you said, if you wanted to watch yourself playing golf on "Golf TV" you would have to pay for it....its that asimple....but are you telling me, that a top international golf tournament would pay "Golf TV" to televise?...I dont think so at all, as was stated earlier, Bernie DOESNT pay the BBC does he?, Man United dont pay sky, but if "Halstead Town FC" wanted a televised event by Sky...they would have to pay

I state again, it depends on who you are, this particular drive by Media TV is linked with a promotion company, together with Hayfisher and is based on the sucess of revenue generated last year by the "Live" pilot, it was revenue from advertising and subsequent re runs and sales to other european channels.

[andy97]

Agree with all of that Claire but I also agree with Al's original post. And TV or no TV I bet AMOC didn't make any money from it, especially now I see that there's a promotion company involved as well.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by andy97

Agree with all of that Claire but I also agree with Al's original post. And TV or no TV I bet AMOC didn't make any money from it, especially now I see that there's a promotion company involved as well.

Ok..so this has gone full circle...so I wont bore the audience but as per Al's Original post

1 It was planned last year so the week before this meeting had NO relevence, how AMOC is doing also has no relevence, it is the concept that was bought into, the ten minute races etc that were in the plan, not AMOC, it was already agreed in the middle of last year which circuits and when and considering the fact that they went to press in October with the PDF in question tells you that this was planned well in advance, the logistics that had to be taken into account etc all of that was prepared long ago.

2 This thread is not about if AMOC is making money, its about the choice of Motors to televise their race meeting.

3 As I stated previously no one goes out thinking "I'll run a race meeting with only single figure entries" do they?...no, they dont, the whole point of this particular televised event was, as per the PDF, " saw UK club motorsport beamed live to TV screens across europe and there lies also another answer to your question Al, just to confirm, advertising on TV is the main revenue earner for TV companies, digital TV also get the advertising from the internet stream, which as you all probably know, has overtaken analogue TV advertising. Now, those adverts are ALSO, planned sometimes months in advance, I know this from first hand, you buy airtime and if you want specific prime time as such it costs more etc and no one when that whole broadcast was planned knew they were only gonna get single figure grids.

So, really, in truth, the answer to your original question Al is

"Because they never knew at the time it would be a single figure grid"

[Al Weyman]

So take my wager Claire. I still say money was paid. The adverts I see were very short and cannot see how they met expenses. If they were more selective with what they broadcast instead of taking the buck who knows there may be a revival of interest in 'just' club racing and a boost in advertisers. And i cannot see how you can compare 'just' club racing to a village cricket match or a game of golf amoungst mates as to my recollection neither of those diciplines require you to have a 30 or 40k vehicle and payout a grand a game to compete. Dont down play the club racing scene I really think if broadcast properly and selectively there would be a lot of interest. Anyone remember the packed spectator banks at Brands or the Sun Free Race days which I was privilaged to take part in? BTW didnt I read here some while ago AMOC were struggling for entries so that was a dot on the card there would be limited entrants. I dont blame them for trying it out and probably thought they would get more by way of the fact it was broadcast but in this instance it just didnt pay off.

[Al Weyman]

While on the subject of entries and you talking to someone Claire. Why oh why do you have to belong to all these different clubs or pay a registration fee. Take this AMOC meeting I may well of had a bit of that and the TV bit does appeal as i promote my little business but I bet I would have had to pay someone or other a hundred quid or so to compete plus entry. Now surely this is so short sighted and again never used to be like this, in the old days you just had to belong to an MSA register club and that was it. Take CTCRC they are the same apart form club membership I have to join the BARC anothe £105, well sorry I dont want to really be a member of two clubs and dont see why I have to be forget the gloss mags I dont read them or want them thanks. Then if I want to have a go out with CSCC same applies £25 to join the club and another £95 registration and I am sure its happening everywhere. Its off putting to getting in entries and quite frankly with the current state of the economy I really want to be selective what meetings I do now based on travelling distance and entrants. So my message to the clubs is please drop this requirement to join every club and register for every series if you are serious about getting the floating entry in. Oh I would add I wouldnt object to paid up members getting entry priority if heaven forbide there were full grids, thats only fair I am more talking about making up the numbers on the single figure grids.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

So take my wager Claire. I still say money was paid. The adverts I see were very short and cannot see how they met expenses. If they were more selective with what they broadcast instead of taking the buck who knows there may be a revival of interest in 'just' club racing and a boost in advertisers. And i cannot see how you can compare 'just' club racing to a village cricket match or a game of golf amoungst mates as to my recollection neither of those diciplines require you to have a 30 or 40k vehicle and payout a grand a game to compete. Dont down play the club racing scene I really think if broadcast properly and selectively there would be a lot of interest. Anyone remember the packed spectator banks at Brands or the Sun Free Race days which I was privilaged to take part in?

Al, we are going way off your original question....which I still believe is answered by the fact that it was booked/arranged months ago but on the subject of the airing Do you know how much an advert is to air? seriously?

Money did change hands....you are still NOT reading what I said...its like the regs for Rolling starts!!! lol

2) I am IN NO WAY "downplaying" club racing at all and please dont say I am cause Im not HOWEVER and PLEASE let Common Sense take over here

BE REALISTIC AL, put relatively Club Racing is not as popular as BTCC or GP...sorry its NOT , not for television audiences, not for spectators either and you are refering to standing on a bank at Brands when

1) No internet
2) Three channels maybe four of television, limiting the output to prime time top notch stuff that atracted massive audiences
3) Consumer choice was far more limited than now
4) Videos didnt exist

Once again Al, just because I am pointing out the reasoning does not mean that I dont wish it wasnt like that, but, to put it in context and this is not me personally, but, someone can watch a race from the comfort of their own homes, get pictures from inside the pits etc interviews with their favourite drivers and all while sitting on thier favourite sofa....thats how it is now