Being Complacent

[gachjoel]

This one is a food for thought....

On another thread, it was reported that there was a near miss with Marshals at a recent BTCC meeting.
Also a Marshal was recently hurt (hope you are on the mend)..

I know it is easy to blame the driver.
But it a possibility that Marshals are also being complacent and forgetting the fundamental basics of Marshalling.
Have you had a near miss lately ?

Discuss and thoughts please

[Bodysnatcher]

Having seen the video (which has since been pulled I believe) of the Britcar incident I can say that the marshals involved were not complacent.

Having a 2nd car hit the car being snatched and narrowly missing my incident marshal.
The marshal was not being complacent.

In all these cases the relevant flag/light signals that indicate an activity/action was ocurring on track were displayed to the drivers and still incidents took place.

So I ask, who is it that is being complacent?

[hellblade]

I think that drivers (and those that have the power to realy punish them)are more complacent than marshals by far. I can think of three poinant pointers that come to mind,

I was talking to a ginetta junior driver in race control, thought id be cheeky and ask him what a yellow flag represents, his reply,, 'means i cant overtake' and when telling him it also mean to back the hell off he laughed and said 'non of my mates do so im not'.

Second is the twin radical incident where a marshal had just helped snatch a car at 4a (Brands), that driver was more than complacent

The other was at a GT meet earlier on in the year, some marshals and myself had gone out (under stacked yellows) to push a Ferrari back on track, only a few second after getting there we all watched another car skate over the gravel between us and post.

Marshals tend to be very open eyed especially with half a ton of car passing an inch in front of our noses.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by hellblade

I was talking to a ginetta junior driver in race control, thought id be cheeky and ask him what a yellow flag represents, his reply,, 'means i cant overtake' and when telling him it also mean to back the hell off he laughed and said 'non of my mates do so im not'.

nail, head, hit, etc.

I have much more of a problem with drivers losing control under yellow flag than overtaking. While the latter does resolve the disincentive of backing off only for someone else to nick your place, it's the former which can actually cause injuries. As regards the britcar incident, i'm led to believe that the 2nd car lost it on oil, under the SC. Shouldn't we expect that drivers are at a safe enough speed to ensure that they do not lose it, even on oil? Shouldn't we deter them from taking such risks?

I'd like to see drivers heavily penalised for losing control of their car under yellow. Discuss...

[chezza]

I have to say I agree with Bodysnatcher and Guinness on this one.

We all report overtaking under yellows etc and thats where the focus seems to be, rather than them backing off and being under control. I think officials should take a tough line on this, but them doing so (or being able to do so) is another matter.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

nail, head, hit, etc.

I have much more of a problem with drivers losing control under yellow flag than overtaking. While the latter does resolve the disincentive of backing off only for someone else to nick your place, it's the former which can actually cause injuries. As regards the britcar incident, i'm led to believe that the 2nd car lost it on oil, under the SC. Shouldn't we expect that drivers are at a safe enough speed to ensure that they do not lose it, even on oil? Shouldn't we deter them from taking such risks?

I'd like to see drivers heavily penalised for losing control of their car under yellow. Discuss...

its frowned upon and doesnt that kind of happen already, i dont think it should be made into rules, there would be quite a few undeterminable factors, just leave it as it is upto the discretion of the CoC. after all from a drivers perspective when the SC comes out what happens, the pack backs up and only spans between a small distance, a driver loses it and he's either stuck or at the back of the pack. for the good of a place or 2 or maybe (it shouldnt be but is the case) they lose focus and overweave in places they shouldnt or go round blind corners when marshals may be there, i think that'd be on every drivers mind not to do anything other than follow the SC... a lot can go wrong!

there's plenty of rules that should be implented but as of yet are not, i dont think this one should be...

as for the "nicking of places" the person who comes up with an effective solution i want them to pick my lottery numbers! its instict, if you know to keep up a certain pace every race, you know if you back off a lot slower than the next guy all of a sudden, he's going fast and you dont want to you know you have to still keep that pace, until you know he's going to go slow as well... when the full course yellows and the boards come out what is the common feeling amongst drivers? is that the moment they start to back off and slow down to SC speeds i.e half pace or is it when they actually SEE the SC at stand still on the middle of the circuit, i think we all know its the latter when they all push their luck... it should happen at the first SC board and flag combo, doesnt though, does it... its not the best but there's a reason the SC may be deployed, itll just have to take longer for the cars to reach the SC!

[hellblade]

well tbh hot tyres on oil will probably send you flying off even if you are doing a pedestrain speed, other things such as car angle etc come into play,

if a car is behaving sensibly under yellows but falls off due to an oil slick or a random puncture or avoiding accident etc then as far as im concerned thats bad luck for the driver and he shouldnt get punished.

if he's still pounding round the track at full speed and falls off then he should get a stewards enquiry.


Simple Spin/Entry to gravel trap = smallish fine,

Overtaking under yellows/Failure to slow down (found by looking at average times for that sector) = fine equal to the entry for the race with multipliers)

Dangerous Driving - excluded from the next race etc and fined,

Incident = removed from the meeting and heavily fined. possibility of suspension

[chezza]

One issue there Hellblade the majority of races is done on one single lap time, there aren't sector times like in F1 etc.

Also are you saying any spin/trip into the gravel should be a fine? Way to kill all motorsport...its expensive enough as it is!!

You will find that there are already a set of fines and penalties set out by the MSA in the blue book...whether or not they are severe enough is another debate...but you will always get differing opinions on that one.

[hellblade]

one thing that would need to be sorted out however is on board helmet cams on drivers (something equivalent) so that officials can see what the driver can see and make fair judgements based on this data.

[hellblade]

Originally Posted by chezza

One issue there Hellblade the majority of races is done on one single lap time, there aren't sector times like in F1 etc.

Also are you saying any spin/trip into the gravel should be a fine? Way to kill all motorsport...its expensive enough as it is!!

.

In that case couldnt they just use that drivers slowest lap and if he is at that or higher then he obviously hasnt backed off in anyway.

weellll i suppose that is abit harsh tbh but under yellows??? maybe they could use a three strike system etc?

[Nighthawk]

silverstone BTCC marshals on track during safety car deployment...I was on pit straight i heard on speakers in box safety car coming in also heard whistles all in good time.
from what i saw marshals did not respond even after a close shave with collards car.then 2 more cars took avioding action - ok these drivers where going to fast but why marshals did not respond i dont know there may be other factors i dont know off but yes i agree Being Complacent i think.....

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by hellblade

In that case couldnt they just use that drivers slowest lap and if he is at that or higher then he obviously hasnt backed off in anyway.

weellll i suppose that is abit harsh tbh but under yellows??? maybe they could use a three strike system etc?

if it this was ever to be a rule the video should be obtained (which brings on another issue onboards would have to be mandatory!) it should be the moment the driver has reached the yellows or SC, bizzare some may say but that is the most dangerous moment of all, all the racers are closing from racing speed to a slower vehicle, the incident hasnt been contained and some people are behind the safety car others may not be. how can you judge theyve backed off (telemtry then something would then have to be put into force to help that, judging the reactions from the video works on race manouevres but this...)

good debate but the majority of this may never happen

[chezza]

Originally Posted by hellblade

In that case couldnt they just use that drivers slowest lap and if he is at that or higher then he obviously hasnt backed off in anyway.

weellll i suppose that is abit harsh tbh but under yellows??? maybe they could use a three strike system etc?

How do you determine his slowest lap...the out lap, the one where they had an issue and slowed, the in lap? Sorry I don't mean to be difficult, but its not as easy as it seems.

Under yellows is a bit different. But at the moment you will find if they have three trips into the gravel then they'll get a black and white flag, if they continue to do so depending on the time in the session you may find they're black flagged or are called up to the clerk at the end of the session for a "chat".

As an aside...from the Judicial section of the blue book...Section C...

2.1. Any Promoter, Organiser, Official, Entrant,
Competitor, Passenger, Driver, Mechanic or other
Person committing a breach of these Regulations or of
any conditions attached to an organising Permit, or of
any Instruction to Competitors, or of any special Track
Rules may be penalised as hereinafter provided.
2.1.1. The penalties that may be inflicted are, in order of
increasing severity, as follows:
(a) Reprimand (2.4).
(b) Fine (2.4).
(c) Time Penalty (or Position Penalty – Karts) (2.3).
(d) Exclusion (2.5).
(e) Suspension (2.6).
(f) Disqualification (2.7).
One or more of the above may be imposed as
appropriate.
2.1.2. The National Court may also, in addition to any
penalty:
(a) Declare the results of an event null and void.
(b) Order the return of any awards, or annul
championship points.
(c) Order the return of all, or part of Entry Fees.
(d) Impose such conditions on future events as it
thinks fit.
(e) Order the downgrading of any MSA licence.
Once downgraded such licence may be
upgraded by fresh signatures alone.

[Shelagh]

Years ago, one Will Hoy complained that he had gone off because the "oil" flag had gone in. There was no oil flag - so how much credence do you give to divers' perception??

Sorry - I've just realised how insensitive this could be iif read outside my current mindset. DW RIP.

[NewYankee01]

im sorry ill have to put you through a bit more of my ramblings

like many of the people on here ive been coming on here for years as a guest before you say, we keep getting these "people are becoming complacent" year after year, very valid comments they may very well be but being involved in a dangerous sport close to the very things that could kill you, being controlled by other people way out of your control. arent we going to get near misses, we all dont want to see it happen but we spend hours at work and it happens there to people, we also spend highly dangerous working hours on post. the way i see it, its not we're complacent, it just depends on the situation

in a way instances like what we're talking about could happen to a highly experienced marshal at an event fresh from training, safe as hell (like most of us are before i get 1000 replies!) they get took out what do you call that, being complacent?

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

Years ago, one Will Hoy complained that he had gone off because the "oil" flag had gone in. There was no oil flag - so how much credence do you give to divers' perception??

Sorry - I've just realised how insensitive this could be iif read outside my current mindset. DW RIP.

well i dont know if divers' perceptions should be taken into account, drivers yeah (im sorry im the last one to comment!)

yeah this a good point, trying to argue and enforce a penalty for driving standards under normal conditions is hard enough, never mind under one of the most stressful times for a driver in a race, doing what any driver does, pushing the limits quite literally.

ill second that DW is all within our minds right now

[kipper]

Originally Posted by hellblade

In that case couldnt they just use that drivers slowest lap and if he is at that or higher then he obviously hasnt backed off in anyway.

I foresee a couple of flaws with that approach as a driver's slowest lap time may have been influenced by mechanical problems or by adverse weather conditions (probably of more relevance in longer sessions/races). As such a driver may have slowed down sufficiently but is in excess of their slowest time. Secondly, a driver may be below there slot there best time, but their speed is inappropriate (particularly if they have lost time elsewhere on the lap) or may not be to fully in control during the yellow flag zone.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by kipper

I foresee a couple of flaws with that approach as a driver's slowest lap time may have been influenced by mechanical problems or by adverse weather conditions (probably of more relevance in longer sessions/races). As such a driver may have slowed down sufficiently but is in excess of their slowest time. Secondly, a driver may be below there slot there best time, but their speed is inappropriate (particularly if they have lost time elsewhere on the lap) or may not be to fully in control during the yellow flag zone.

agreed this may be taken into account but what about on a pit stop lap with maybe a puncture in a rain shower, then the person with the blue book wouldnt have a leg to stand on with this rule! itd would definately be the slowest lap... either that or the SC driver could be out on a slow sunday drive...

[chezza]

The point both myself and kipper were getting at is how do you decide the slowest lap? Its not something that could easily and readily be bought in to club racing.

[White flag man]

I have come to believe recently that the increasing numbers of big accidents, recently, comes down to drivers being complacent about the amount of safety they have inside the car. I was at marshalling at the Nordschleife recently when an Aston Martin has a huge accident near the previous post. The body of the car was a wreck, but the inside, because of the shell, was virtually undamaged and the driver walked away.
Yet, apparently, a marshal suffered a broken leg, at the same meeting (on the other side of the circuit), because they were, apparently, leaning on the armco when another incident happened nearby.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by chezza

We all report overtaking under yellows etc and thats where the focus seems to be, rather than them backing off and being under control. I think officials should take a tough line on this, but them doing so (or being able to do so) is another matter.

I've certainly done reports of drivers not being under control whilst yellows are displayed. Sliding, running wide, making contact with others - easy to recognise.

Whether the reports are actioned, well, we all know it depends on so many other factors. Basically though it's down to the clerk. Does he or she think your report relevant / factually correct / worth making an effort over?
I find that clerks that know you personally make more effort. Faceless men running a business venture have other priorities it seems.

Can I (as a Post Chief) determine if a driver has slowed in my sector? Not visually I can't. But if I was running this netbook in the "hut" with TSL's live timing apps, maybe just maybe. Can timekeepers report non-lifters if a yellow is out ? F1 and that sort of level seem to, relying on rapid messages from the flag marshals.

We require rapid comms in the club racing setting to replicate this, so probably some way off. (unless we had the system that dare not be mentioned)

PS mobile phones & camera frowned on whist on duty, but as yet I've not seen laptops mentioned.

[Bodysnatcher]

PS did I see somewhere recently that next year's F. Ford championship cars will all have in car cameras to assist if required in judicials.
Presumably the incar footage will only be looked at if required.
How about turning that around and randomly taking one car's footage and replaying it for non reported infringements?
harsh? pah, I've barely even started.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

PS did I see somewhere recently that next year's F. Ford championship cars will all have in car cameras to assist if required in judicials.
Presumably the incar footage will only be looked at if required.
How about turning that around and randomly taking one car's footage and replaying it for non reported infringements?
harsh? pah, I've barely even started.

Mandatory cameras are becoming more common, PBMW have run them this year as have the Radicals and Minis (Mini Challenge) - I imagine other series have as well. My experience is that the footage is looked at where drivers complain about incidents that aren't reported by marshals (as is circuit footage).

It's useful to have the footage and I've seen it used to demonstrate overtaking under yellows as well as to help with contact reports.

It would be great to have timing sectors around the track with an integrated flag system that indicates the moment a yellow is displayed or withdrawn...but we don't have that at this time.

[Woolley]

Download the data traces - everyone seems to have PI or similar these days, and then you can see if the throttle/steering/suspension travel has changed through yellow flag sectors?

However, going back to the original question - on the whole I don't think so. The important thing when going trackside is to keep a good look out at the oncoming traffic, and on the whole that's what I've seen happening. The may be occasions when it's overlooked for a variety of reasons, but in my experience that's a rarity and always commented on if it's happened.

[wolfhound]

If a circuit has a good CCTV system used in combination with timing records it should not be too difficult to find those who are not obeying the flags.

If a driver posts a fast time when yellow flags are out then there should be a suitable punishment.

If a driver goes off under waved yellow flags then he needs a significant punishment. The excuse that there was oil on the track does not have any bearing on it as a yellow flag will take precedence over a change of surface flag.

To the best of my knowledge a waved yellow flag means be prepared to stop, going off under waved yellows means that the driver was not prepared to stop if needed.