Ricciardo vs Vergne ( vs Raikkonen)

[FAS33]

Who's going to get the Redbull seat in 2014 after Webber retires/changes team/races elsewhere?

[GTRMagic]

Neither of these two...

[Armco Bender]

Mitch Evans.

[Razzzor]

I think Mitch has no need to sign up as one of the RB development drivers and put his future in their hands. Two good years at Arden will show how good he is without their money.

Look at how they spat out Brendon Hartley just because he had an off 6 months. He never recovered, that was it.

And joining F1 with Toro Rosso you aren't going to shine, they're already gone through Jaime, Buemi, currently Vergne and Dan, all very good drivers I think that haven't really shone with that team, probably because the cars are simply too slow for them to put in an impressive drive, and the drivers are too even.

It's fine with Bianchi when he has a team mate like Chilton (who's only had 10 race wins in his entire racing career), of course Bianchi is going to end up looking really good.

As for the topic, I think it'll be Vergne.

[Aysedasi]

No idea and not a lot of interest either!

[p-matt]

^ Let's be honest, Hartley had more than an off 6 months. He wasn't ever able to win in 3.5, then they put JEV in the car and he wins within a matter of races.

Right now I'd say Kimi is the favourite for Webber's seat, but of the two STR drivers definitely JEV. Last year his highs were higher than Dan's, and despite being a bit behind in qualifying he's outshone him again this year so far. Daniel is solid and doesn't make mistakes, but I can't see he has the pace or the temperament to win races.

[safc_fan89]

Alguersuari. He'd probably wipe the floor with both of these. Both seem like pretty mediocre drivers.

[cds_uk]

I'm inclined to agree with most of the above, both are decent solid drivers but neither of them have made me sit up and think "wow", much like Buemi and Alguersuari really. If I had to choose one of the two I would probably go for Vergne though.

[p-matt]

I should add though, Dan and JEV are much better than both Buemi and Alguersuari were at this stage in their careers. JEV definitely has the potential to really impress, and we've certainly seen flashes of it in F3 and FR 3.5.

[bella]

jev, hands down. for reasons that i'm pretty sure i've worn out in the past 18 months or so since he joined toro rosso

it's a bit premature for mitch evans. he's got a lot to learn yet about grown up racing. a gp3 title does not a champion driver make.

[Armco Bender]

I actually think Richie Stanaway is by far the fastest Kiwi going around at the moment.
Richie for Red Bull and Mitch for Torro Rosso sounds good to me.

[bella]

richie is ridiculously quick but certainly up until his accident he was too committed, imo. he has two speeds - warm-up lap and fast. need to wait until he's back in the swing of it (in porsches, which is a bit strange) to see whether he's going to mature and learn to moderate himself.

it says a lot that marco sorensen had the measure of him when they were in the same car - they've got completely different approaches to getting the most out of the car.

and i think gravity/lotus are still ponying up for his racing so presumably they have first dibs on him in f1

[Casper]

I watched an interview with Ricciardo done at Malaysia and he looked like a man who knew he was going nowhere in that he was talking the whole thing up to a stupid degree. His body language said it all.

[cmk]

I would rate JEV over Ricciardo but I wonder whether either has done enough to justify the seat. I get the Kimi talk, but I wonder whether that would really be a winning move for both parties. I don't see Seb and Kimi being a wise pairing for either driver or for the team. The pace of the Lotus over the next few months might be key there, as well. Being undisputed team lead in a quick car would be better than battling Dr. Marko.

If da Costa has another cracking season in FR3.5 I could see him being in the running if RB is in a gambling mood. A season of GP2 would stand him in better stead with respect to tyre management experience though. Would be a hard place for a rookie to find himself in. If Webber can't stand up to Vettel, could a rookie? Or maybe that brash make or break mentality is exactly what is needed to not be cowed?!

[Razzzor]

I don't know what happened to Hartley, he seemed to be so good early on, but then just fell off the boat.

Looking at his results. He comes over to Europe in 2006 and wins the Eurocup in 2007 with ease. Jaime Alguersuari was his teammate, and he absolutely obliterated Jaime that year - more than twice the points. And Jaime actually was in his third year of Eurocup so had more experience. Other guys in Eurocup that year were Charles Pic, Oliver Turvey, Leimer, heck even Bianchi did some races.

He also did Formula Renault 2.0 Italia but got beaten by Jaime and Mika Maki in points, though it was close between the three.

2008 British F3 he teams with Oliver Turvey and Alguersuari again, with Jaime winning the title. But all 3 were very close. Hartley had 6 retirements to Alguersuari two, and over the season was the fastest driver, in my opinion, and probably should have been champion. Perez was competing that year as well. At Macau, If I remember rightly, he qualified way down the order and was the sensation of Macau charging through the field to 3rd.

Up till now he's shown he's just as much potential, probably more, than Alguersuari, yet Jaime got to F1 and Brendon got dropped. What happened?

2009 he goes to F3 Euro and struggles with Carlin, although he owned his teammate. Also does FR 3.5 and gets owned by Pic who finishes 3rd in the points with Brendon only getting a single podium for the season, finishing 15th. That was pretty much it, dropped by RB. Fair enough though, that was a pathetic year.

Team mate to Ricciardo and Vergne the next year and gets owned by them again in FR 3.5. Who knows perhaps he took a while to get accustomed to the FR car? It's the only time in his career he dropped form.

I think he came back strong in 2011, but now with backmarker Gravity-Charouz which was hopeless. 7th in points to his teammates 25th. He had a bunch of Gp2 races as well between 2010-2012, for different teams, usually beating his teammates (Melker, Cecotto). Too little too late though. What's my point? I dunno, he obviously didn't have what it takes with those two poor years in FR.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

I actually think Richie Stanaway is by far the fastest Kiwi going around at the moment.
Richie for Red Bull and Mitch for Torro Rosso sounds good to me.

Yeah I did too. I thought he'd surprise everyone in WSR, he dominated testing, but then come the season he just had incidents and technical issues in just about every race or quali. 4 retirements in 5 races = terrible luck.

Sorenson didn't really have the measure of him, he just had luck.

But yeah the way Richie dominated Adac, dominated German F3, won a Gp3 race in only his second start, then dominated WSR testing in a backmarker before 2012, he was on his way up to F1 very fast. I fear he's done now and might be forgotten, unless he can really surprise in the Porsche Supercup, but who the hecks gone from Porsche's to F1??? I don't think anyone, ever. It's a retirement series for ex-F1 not a feeder series. Bad move imo, but maybe he'll get noticed for WSR again for 2014.

In comparison to Mitch Evans, he's really showing form now, but can get a bit wreckless (Monza Gp3 2012 a perfect example). He got also beaten to the title by teammates in both Aussie F3 and Aussie FFord. Though I think if Mitch returned to Australia now, there's no one that could beat him, he's gotten a lot better since.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

I fear he's done now and might be forgotten, unless he can really surprise in the Porsche Supercup, but who the hecks gone from Porsche's to F1??? I don't think anyone, ever. It's a retirement series for ex-F1 not a feeder series.

I think you're confusing Supercup with DTM!

Seriously though, it's not really a retirement series as I'm struggling to think of an ex-F1 driver in Supercup, but it is quite possibly a way into a factory drive with Porsche or elsewhere. There are worse places to ply your trade than under the nose of a company starting a P1 program in 2014. Substantially better than trundling around in a Marussia or the like in the opinion of many.

[Armco Bender]

I don't know what happened to Hartley,

On his day he's blindingly untouchablely fast.....unfortunately the other 6 days of the week he's usually in the gravel trap.

[p-matt]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Yeah I did too. I thought he'd surprise everyone in WSR, he dominated testing, but then come the season he just had incidents and technical issues in just about every race or quali. 4 retirements in 5 races = terrible luck.

Sorenson didn't really have the measure of him, he just had luck.

If there's one thing Sorensen didn't have it's luck!! Was it two wins he lost due to late race retirements?

To be fair, I don't think we saw enough to judge Sorensen vs Stanaway. But the little we did see Sorensen clearly had the edge.

[OZ_HCR32]

I would not be surprised if they signed Kimi. Outside of a proven performer like Kimi I don't see any other drivers off contract at years end who you would take over Dan or JEV.

I think on one lap speed Dan has it over JEV. Race craft it seems as though JEV is ahead and Dan often falls back in races. But that could be courtesy of him being ahead of the cars pace in quali. Dan has not had some of the silly crashes that JEV has had and Dan has had the bulk of car problems , some of them leading to retirment.

Dan has had the one impressive P6 quali result which he really needs to repeat in the next 2-3 races. He did go backwards off the line which really makes the P6 quali effort rather forgettable.

Dan had more points finishes last year which is encouraging for him. He also had the upper hand in quali and also had a few points robbing car issues. Monzo springs to mind and there was a few others.

That all said JEV beat him in the WDC courtesy of his 4 x 8ths and you get the feeling that JEV is more likely to be picked to step up.

It would be refreshing to see someone with the personality of Dan get the seat....but in my eyes he is already a driver you need to look for reasons as to why he didn't beat his team mate. That is a concern that he is a DC, Webber, Fisi type who can be fast...but

It was interesting to hear Davidson and Herbert both rate Dan higher than JEV

[bella]

Originally Posted by p-matt

If there's one thing Sorensen didn't have it's luck!! Was it two wins he lost due to late race retirements?

To be fair, I don't think we saw enough to judge Sorensen vs Stanaway. But the little we did see Sorensen clearly had the edge.

exactly! crikey razzzor, fair play to you for doing your stat homework but marco was painfully unlucky. richie was unfortunate, but a lot of it was stemming from his own mistakes. there were guys who had even worse starts to the season but who handled it far, far better.

if we're going to pick it apart, richie stalled on the grid and got hit by venturini. unfortunate, it happened to quite a few drivers throughout the season though. in the second race at motorland he had a pretty good race - though iirc it was that one that sorensen was leading and lost to a mechanical issue. at monaco richie binned it on his outlap in practice - that was unbelievably daft, but reasonably characteristic of his shortcomings in that the need to get times in and make use of a clear track got in the way of being sensible and whatnot. in the race his throttle stuck open and he shunted at exactly the same corner, on the other side of the track. at spa in race 1 qualifying he threw it off again, and got wheeled off the starting grid. then in race 2 he had his shunt. that's from memory so it might be a bit rusty.

stanaway will just rag the daylights out of a car, he really does have extraordinary pace, whereas sorensen is a lot more, um.... thoughtful in his approach and was more methodical with his engineer than stanaway. they were chalk and cheese, which was what made their similar pace all that much more fascinating.

as for hartley... i think he reached as far as his abilities would take him, iirc his average performance was fairly uninteresting. i think he was a textbook example of when and why red bull kick drivers out - if you can't produce the results then you're not going to be a successful racing driver no matter what. yeah, ok, ricciardo had a wobbly season in the year he was with isr, but he was racing for hrt in f1 at the same time.

[bella]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

I think on one lap speed Dan has it over JEV. Race craft it seems as though JEV is ahead and Dan often falls back in races. But that could be courtesy of him being ahead of the cars pace in quali.

.....

It was interesting to hear Davidson and Herbert both rate Dan higher than JEV

picked two quotes out of your post that kind of sum it up really. ricciardo is great at one lap pace but he's not very good at racing. jev has real problems delivering a fast lap in qualifying but he's quicker and better in a race. that seems to be a f1 specific problem for jev, though he did sometimes not quite deliver the qualifying time in other series. it was a lot easier to make back the ground though, f1 is a bit more regimented and it's not just the other drivers and cars that stop a driver making progress.

as for the pundits rating dan higher than jev... mmm. i think it depends on what you value. ricciardo's probably a bit better as a f1 driver at the moment but jev is the better *racing* driver, hands down.

[m355y]

Think the Ricciardo vs JEV battle has been a really interesting subplot since the start of 2012 and its been close. Think Vergne started well despite his lack of F1 experience compared to Ricciardo, then fell back into a real rut as Dan got that P6 in Bahrain and started to look pretty fast. All the talk turned to Dan and as Vergne was struggling all the time to make Q2 he looked increasingly like a lost cause. Thought he'd had it. Ricciardo was flying, getting points finishes and asserting himself well ahead.

But something changed maybe around Spa and now a couple of races into 2013 Vergne is probably back ahead. The problem with Ricciardo I think is that he's quite fast - but that's probably about it. Vergne has an issue in qualifying but seems increasingly to just have far more facets to his ability - he races so well bar the odd silly collision. And it's SO easy to forget that through it all he had Ricciardo well beaten on points in 2012, 16 to 10.

I reckon one of them will be in a RB next season, probably JEV.

[OZ_HCR32]

Can anyone remember the 3 races in a row where Dan fell on his sword? One of them was Monza where a fuel pump or something failed and up to that point was in 8th (I think). In Spa I think he had a problem that meant he slowed and Vergne got his 8th posi off him?

Not quite sure, and helps to remember when looking at 2012 points haul.

But there is something mighty impressive with how Vergne seems to float through the grid in races. Reminds me of Heidfeld, you would never see him overtake anyone but at the end of the race always seemed to manage to work his way forward without the drama that would have cameras following.

The big plus is they both seem to be good characters , though Dan seems more of the circus clown with jokes and the sort of smile that now seems missing from Romain

[m355y]

That GP was Korea I think, he slowed and finished 9th behind JEV when otherwise the positions would have been reversed. Ricciardo had some good races. Anyone who can qualify a 2012 spec Toro Rosso sixth is obviously really fast and he did get some bad luck when looking set for points. For me the doubt with him is tht his pace seems to drop off a lot over races. There are some quite telling stats I remember showing that Vergne set a faster best race lap than Ricciardo in something like 15 of the 20 races and was within a fraction of getting fastest lap in Singapore, I think?

It's been swings and roundabouts at times but I think both have done pretty well and it's not a case of both of them being mediocre drivers with no reference point for how good they are aside from their own battle. They're both holding their own.