2014 rule changes

[veevet]

got the MSA magazine with an accompanying pamphlet on rule changes recently and modified rule K 2.1 reads:

2.1.

All seat safety belts must be complete units
sourced from a recognised manufacturer and fitted in
accordance with the manufacturers’ instructions, MSA
recommendations or FIA requirements. (See Drawing
Nos. 39, 40, 41, 42 and 44.)
Where the vehicle manufacturer’s standard safety belts
and associated fitments are not utilised, bolts must be

of a minimum 7/16in UNF or M12 (grade 8.8).

Now I have Willans 6 point single seater harnesses and I'm sure they have m8 fitting bolts. Willans web site says that's what they come with. They are apparently FIA approved so I am stumped by the M12 spec above. Drilling out the mounting holes would be dangerous. Have I got the wriong end of the stick here?

[SidewaysFeltham]

veevet wrote:

"got the MSA magazine with an accompanying pamphlet on rule changes recently and modified rule K 2.1 reads:

2.1.

All seat safety belts must be complete units
sourced from a recognised manufacturer and fitted in
accordance with the manufacturers’ instructions, MSA
recommendations or FIA requirements. (See Drawing
Nos. 39, 40, 41, 42 and 44.)
Where the vehicle manufacturer’s standard safety belts
and associated fitments are not utilised, bolts must be

of a minimum 7/16in UNF or M12 (grade 8.8).

Now I have Willans 6 point single seater harnesses and I'm sure they have m8 fitting bolts. Willans web site says that's what they come with. They are apparently FIA approved so I am stumped by the M12 spec above. Drilling out the mounting holes would be dangerous. Have I got the wrong end of the stick here?"

As is so often the case, when regulators seek to impose rules they tend to ignore legacy aspects: i.e. those vehicles captured where original designers ensured their design complied with the then standing regulations.

Simply re-drilling and thus enlarging mounting bolt holes may well weaken, the harness mounting! (Since the assumed load is taken out - Distributed, Radially - by the surrounding core construction material: usually mild steel, or often with monocoque tubs, dural.

(Since the new demand increases the hole by 50%).

Presumably, the original design took into account the Sheer Factor imposed by the G Force of an average human body decelerating rapidly from say 170 MPH.

Therefore the Sheer Tensile Resistance of your M8 bolt would have been adequate: adequate ++, as Safety Factor Overload is always assumed by the designer.

All reminds me of the late, great Derek Bennett: the designer and builder of Chevron cars.

A racing engineer chum was in the paddock at Brands, when an over-officious RAC 'scrute demanded of Derek certification of the roll cage on a new single seater. Derek, of course, was self-taught; a vocational engineering genius.

Since Derek was not a qualified engineer, the pompous 'scrute refused outright to pass the car.

Fortunately, another designer (A qualified engineer) was also in the paddock and wrote out a suitable cert on the spot and sent the 'scrute away with a flea in his pearl like!

[veevet]

I have spoken to Willans who believe this is a mistake. They are waiting to hear back from he MSA!

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by veevet

I have spoken to Willans who believe this is a mistake. They are waiting to hear back from he MSA!

There's hope yet, then.

Similar problem back in the early 70s concerning on-board extinguishers.

We used Graviner which was BCF: (Bromochlorodifluoromethane), just in case anyone's bothered! I bothered to learn this at the time and have never forgotten. Worrying........


Scrutes were utterly confused for some little time: the new regs were brought in, mainly after the appalling death of dear old Seppi - Jo Siffert -, at Brands.

I was there: utterly horrifying accident.

The core problem was the automatic (Deceleration) detector and the manual driver's over-ride switch.

In the early days the deceleration switch would suddenly trip for no reason!

Hope you sort it all out.

[BertMk2]

That looks like a wording error (not for the first time).

All seat safety belts must be complete units
sourced from a recognised manufacturer and fitted in
accordance with the manufacturers’ instructions, MSA
recommendations or FIA requirements.

I think as long as you follow the manufacturers instructions (using the M8 bolts they supplied) you're fine. I think the important bit is the 'or' in that sentence - if you're not going to use the bits supplied by the manufacturer then you have to use the M12 bolts. At least that's how I read it?

For us next year we have to have in date seats (5 year life) and a belt cutter where we can both reach it (or one each). Belt cutter is about a fiver a go so no big shakes, binning a pair of seats that are absolutely fine and having to get a new pair is not so good. If anyone is looking to buy new seats I can recommend talking to Motordrive (I have no affiliation with them btw), we've got a narrow fit seat for me and a larger width one for my driver and they're easily the most comfortable seats we've tried. They also did us a discount for being a repeat customer (our 3rd set from them).

[veevet]

I'm not 100% certain but I'm pretty sure that single seater belts are not supplied with bolts but the fitting holes in the plates are 8mm and as confirmed by Willans if anyone tried drilling them out to 12mm there not be much metal left. Anway hopefully there'll be a new rule along in a minute!

Throwing good belts away after a few years is painfull. I can imagine chucking away seats must really smart a bit.

[MagnetON]

Drivers should also be aware of the changes to the flag regulations.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by veevet

I'm not 100% certain but I'm pretty sure that single seater belts are not supplied with bolts but the fitting holes in the plates are 8mm and as confirmed by Willans if anyone tried drilling them out to 12mm there not be much metal left. Anway hopefully there'll be a new rule along in a minute!

Throwing good belts away after a few years is painfull. I can imagine chucking away seats must really smart a bit.

The only real reason for binning belts is if they are obviously frayed in any part and more particularly, at the attachment ends: and/or, if the belt has undergone significant deceleration.

What is invariably ignored is a simple fact: any safety belt is designed to stretch if the wearer is involved in an accident entailing serious deceleration.

The reason is if the belt didn't stretch, serious body injury would result, as the belt material acts as a shock absorber and allows some forward movement and then gradually damps this out. In serious cases the neck/spine could be broken, otherwise.

This was dramatically illustrated to me when an acquaintance totalled his MG Midget, by driving straight into an ambulance station on the main straight at top speed......

As it was his first race, he was helped in the paddock and we tightened the brand new full harness and he kept complaining bitterly it was far too tight and he couldn't move at all. The seat was mounted as far back on the floor-pan as possible

Despite this, the harness allowed his helmet visor to move far enough forward to punch the screen out of the frame.........

One further point: if you are involved in an RTA entailing serious deceleration demand new belts as part of the repair.

The underwriters will hate this but should stump up.

[veevet]

The only real reason for binning belts is if they are obviously frayed in any part and more particularly, at the attachment ends: and/or, if the belt has undergone significant deceleration.

What is invariably ignored is a simple fact: any safety belt is designed to stretch if the wearer is involved in an accident entailing serious deceleration.

Makes one wonder why belts are "lifed" by date. If they're damaged then they need to be changed. If the car's been in a big one they need to be changed. Don't really see any reason for saying 5 years has gone by they have to be thrown. A car might have been out twice in that time and have no weather damage, wear etc. Heh ho!

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by veevet

Makes one wonder why belts are "lifed" by date. If they're damaged then they need to be changed. If the car's been in a big one they need to be changed. Don't really see any reason for saying 5 years has gone by they have to be thrown. A car might have been out twice in that time and have no weather damage, wear etc. Heh ho!

Precisely. If you've got a 5 year old seat that has never been used and one that's a month old and has been involved in several large accidents guess which one you can put in a car and use? Yep that's right folks - the one that's ****ed. Genius.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by veevet

Makes one wonder why belts are "lifed" by date. If they're damaged then they need to be changed. If the car's been in a big one they need to be changed. Don't really see any reason for saying 5 years has gone by they have to be thrown. A car might have been out twice in that time and have no weather damage, wear etc. Heh ho!

Don't forget, all synthetic fabrics degrade over time and lose their elasticity and integrity.

Tyres are one good example.

Additionally, scrutineers, if doing their job properly, do examine safety harnesses for any sign of degradation: fraying, mounts etc.

[veevet]

Originally Posted by SidewaysFeltham

Don't forget, all synthetic fabrics degrade over time and lose their elasticity and integrity.

Tyres are one good example.

Additionally, scrutineers, if doing their job properly, do examine safety harnesses for any sign of degradation: fraying, mounts etc.

Synthetics will last for 100's years if not exposed to adverse conditions. tyres are mostly damaged by UV. Belts inside a tin top won't get UV damaged as the glass filters it and single seaters only see light at a circuit.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by veevet

Synthetics will last for 100's years if not exposed to adverse conditions. tyres are mostly damaged by UV. Belts inside a tin top won't get UV damaged as the glass filters it and single seaters only see light at a circuit.

Interestingly, the US approval cert guys, the SFI only state 2 years seat belt life: whereas the FIA accept five.......

http://www.sfifoundation.com/article-2/

[SidewaysFeltham]

Just a further thought on this topic.

Interested me, so I searched, further.

Willans only use Polyester synthetic webbing: whereas US manufacturers use Nylon.

Polyester fabric is noted as having far greater resistance to natural degradation effect.

Presumably why the North American SFI standard only allows a belt life of 2 years.

If I were still racing single seaters, then I think I would send my harness back to Willans each Winter for a health check: same with on-board fire extinguishers.

Life is not a rehearsal.........

[GORDON STREETER]

We have been there before on seat belts, road cars never have the belts changed except for damage that can be seen and if the pre tensioners have gone off in a crash.
They are smaller than ones used in competition and in 50 years in the motor trade I personally have never seen one snapped.
Yes I've seen them pull out of rotten mounting points as no doubt lots of people have, but I have also seen plenty of heavy old cars like Rover 90s being picked up with a crane by the original 40 year old seat belts in the scrap yards !

[Tim Falce]

I think the clue is in the first part of the sentence.

Where the vehicle manufacturer’s standard safety belts
and associated fitments are not utilised, bolts must be of a minimum 7/16in UNF or M12 (grade 8.8).

So if you use Willans fixings there can't be a problem.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

road cars never have the belts changed except for damage that can be seen and if the pre tensioners have gone off in a crash.

If your car road or track has been involved in heavy deceleration, Gordon, then the seat belt/s worn at the time are scrap.

The seatbelt is designed to stretch at a controlled rate to absorb crash energy and reduce the severity of the occupant's deceleration.

Source: http://www.autoliv.com/ProductsAndIn...s/default.aspx

Your insurer may well whine, however ALL seat belt manufacturers will confirm a stretched belt is potentially lethal: as it is liable to break the neck of the wearer under any further significant deceleration event.

Unfortunately, the only method which could be used to test a belt would be a controlled load stretch, similar to those carried out by rope manufacturers for certain certification.

After which the belt is scrap in any case!

[GORDON STREETER]

Yes I know all that, but there is no "life" on a road car seat belt and there is no way that they can be kept tabs on after they have been involved in a heavy shunt and got into the hands of the car breakers yards.

Maybe they will be chipped in the future if they are not already ?

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Yes I know all that, but there is no "life" on a road car seat belt and there is no way that they can be kept tabs on after they have been involved in a heavy shunt and got into the hands of the car breakers yards.

Maybe they will be chipped in the future if they are not already ?

Summat like that, Gordon.

Needs it these days, with all the crazies banging into each other!


¡Feliz Navidad y próspero Año Nuevo!

[R59]

Originally Posted by SidewaysFeltham

Interestingly, the US approval cert guys, the SFI only state 2 years seat belt life: whereas the FIA accept five.......

http://www.sfifoundation.com/article-2/

Yes, but you can send your belts back to SFI for re-certification, and they'll either re-cert them, for a year, or two, or chuck them out.

Same with race suits.

Can't do that with anything FIA - once it's out of date, that's it. I have a couple of sets of belts that have been used four or five times each - that's it, and never in a shunt. Never left in the sunlight, and in perfect condition. I should be able to send them somewhere to be re-certified. But I can't.
Same with an OMP seat that I bought about 10 years ago. Never used it because it didn't fit (couldn't shut the doors due to the head protection being about 1" too wide!!). That's "out of date" too. Still in its wrapper!!.

As for the change of bolt size - what's brought this about? I've not heard/read about any bolts failing.. I've heard about anchor points failing before, but never bolts.

[BertMk2]

Motordrive will inspect 'end of life' seats (5 years) and then if they're happy with the seat extend its life by another 2 years. I don't think other manufacturers do that. There are 10 year life FIA approved seats too now - but at a price that would take you 10 years to pay for!

[GORDON STREETER]

I offered a set of new seat belts to a guy that does track days and he said that he wouldn't use them as they were out of date.
I explained that they had never been used and still in the sealed box but he said that he would sooner trust the standard seat belts in his 16 year old Golf GTI !!!!!

[Mike Bell]

Eyebolt type belt fixings use 7/16" thread now, which equates to 12mm if manufacturers used metric. So no change. It is only bolt in single seater harnesses that use smaller bolts, and I don't imagine from reading the OP that this rule refers to them. Plain English and clarity are not strong points of the organisation!

You can send seats back to Sparco for re-certification. It's only Italy- cost and post can't be that much.......

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Eyebolt type belt fixings use 7/16" thread now,

I thought that most (if not all) seatbelt mounting bolts have been that size from the word go, certainly all the ones that I used to fit when they were first made compulsory were 7/16" UNF that was STD for years and probably still are!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I thought that most (if not all) seatbelt mounting bolts have been that size from the word go, certainly all the ones that I used to fit when they were first made compulsory were 7/16" UNF that was STD for years and probably still are!

Yup, poor wording on my part. 7/16" was the industry standard. Don't know if metric used now? Bit odd to have an all metric threaded car with UNF just for one application. Definitely still unf for race belt eyebolts...