Do you use a wheel gun/impact wrench?

[fifgo]

Hi all,

I am currently undertaking a project regarding wheel guns and would like your help if you use wheel guns/impact wrenches.

Below is a link to a quick survey with some multiple choice questions, it would help me a lot if you could take 1 minute of your time to answer it if you have any exposure to using wheel guns/ impact wrenches. If you use these in a motorsport context please state this in the last comment box.

Thank you in advance

Link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/WNVPXJK


Also if anybody has experience using these in a motorsport environment I would be really interested to hear from you about what you feel the biggest drawback of this system is?

Thank you

[SidewaysFeltham]

Also if anybody has experience using these in a motorsport environment I would be really interested to hear from you about what you feel the biggest drawback of this system is?

Thank you

Simple answer: if any tool, be it wheel brace, socket, or Impact Wrench, tightens a wheel beyond its stated torque, then one risks the danger of crystalyzing the metal where the wheelnut compresses the indented portion and ripping away from the wheel.

Wheel Manufacturers state a maximum torque: exceed this, and the wheel centre is, under load, liable to separate, leaving the wheel and tyre err......... "Freewheeling" along the circuit, whilst the car, tries to move on its suspension and chassis.

I've seen it: it is not fun!

Serious teams (Formula One) used multi-nut spinners, carefully set to the correct torque for speed; manufacturers used similar air tools to set wheel nuts into position.

Cheap impact wrenches cannot achieve accuracy in terms of torque.

Sufficient for you?

[Al Weyman]

I whizz them up and take them off with a gun but always final tighten with torque wrench

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I whizz them up and take them off with a gun but always final tighten with torque wrench

Same here, Al.

Even if the wheel casting resists the torque, I have known over-enthusiastically tightened wide-rim single seater studs to pull out from the hub.

Can be impossible to see the crystallization by eye and needs UV + fluorescent powder, X Ray or similar crack testing.

Early MG Midget/Sprite rims were notoriously weak (Too thin); and the centres would happily pull out, particularly where over-torqued.

I watched this happen to the Autosport cartoonist, Barry Foley, in his Clubman's car: he wasn't happy!

[GORDON STREETER]

It's very easy to exceed the recommended torque of a wheel nut/bolt even when just "buzzing" them up. For years I always use the settings on Autodata for every car that I service. I would like a pound for the amount of cars that I have to work on that even my 3/4 gun won't undo and have to resort to a bar with a 3ft piece of pipe !
Most of the "quickfit " type of emporiums are guilty of ruining wheels/nuts/studs/bolts by just leaving the gun to do it's worse, in the case of steel wheels I have seen them tightened so much that the tapered part of the nut is bottoming out on the hub and ruined the wheel.
In most cases wheels are always tightened too much making the supplied wheel brace as useless as a chocolate fireguard !!!!

[Dave Brand]

If you use an impact gun to tighten fasteners you will overtighten them as you are bringing kinetic energy into the equation. One of the things I vaguely remember from my college days is "double for impact".

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

If you use an impact gun to tighten fasteners you will overtighten them as you are bringing kinetic energy into the equation. One of the things I vaguely remember from my college days is "double for impact".

How many times would you need to tighten with an air gun to see a problem?

Reason for asking - been doing up, then tightening (with spider not torque wrench) wheel nuts on my Honda Civic road car since I bought it at 60k miles. Now done 237k miles and 13 years old. Steel wheels on and off all the time for pads, discs, suspension components, any sort of repair that might need wheels removing. No evidence of issues whatsoever.

Note, I always get a small amount of extra turn when I do the final tighten with the spider.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I whizz them up and take them off with a gun but always final tighten with torque wrench

Ditto.

[GreenMachine]

Me three.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

It's very easy to exceed the recommended torque of a wheel nut/bolt even when just "buzzing" them up. For years I always use the settings on Autodata for every car that I service. I would like a pound for the amount of cars that I have to work on that even my 3/4 gun won't undo and have to resort to a bar with a 3ft piece of pipe !
Most of the "quickfit " type of emporiums are guilty of ruining wheels/nuts/studs/bolts by just leaving the gun to do it's worse, in the case of steel wheels I have seen them tightened so much that the tapered part of the nut is bottoming out on the hub and ruined the wheel.
In most cases wheels are always tightened too much making the supplied wheel brace as useless as a chocolate fireguard !!!!

One reason emergency "Break Down" services are called out, is to remove a flat and fit spare because the car owner simply cannot undo the wheel nuts post the tender care of the average tyre shop!

Know I know and sort of trust, the guy I take our road cars to for tyres etc. However, when he has fitted the wheels, I remove them and refit with the aid of my trusty old Britool torque wrench. Which I re-calibrate every so often using a very accurate spring balance!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by SidewaysFeltham

One reason emergency "Break Down" services are called out, is to remove a flat and fit spare because the car owner simply cannot undo the wheel nuts post the tender care of the average tyre shop!

Know I know and sort of trust, the guy I take our road cars to for tyres etc. However, when he has fitted the wheels, I remove them and refit with the aid of my trusty old Britool torque wrench. Which I re-calibrate every so often using a very accurate spring balance!

I do the same.

I have a theory/ observation that this over torqueing of the bolts also often leads to warped brake discs.

Anyone?

[djr81]

Just thinking about using a torque wrench on a wheel stud makes my head hurt.

I use an electric rattle gun and a torque bar:

http://www.kctools.com.au/Products/i...e-torsion-bars

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by djr81

Just thinking about using a torque wrench on a wheel stud makes my head hurt.........

don't understand this; what's wrong with using the correct torque setting rather than an approximation?

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

don't understand this; what's wrong with using the correct torque setting rather than an approximation?

Perhaps, he is using the old rule of thumb method for tightening.

You know, tighten it up until the stud breaks; buy a new one and don't tighten it so much!



Or, perhaps, in Australia, the term torque wrench has a different meaning?

[djr81]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

don't understand this; what's wrong with using the correct torque setting rather than an approximation?

At the end of the day its just a wheel stud (One of five on each corner) and an approximation (A pretty good one I might add) is good enough. Why?

Because the torque setting is at best an approximate figure despite notionally needing to correlate to a % strain on the stud. The problem is the required torque is massively influenced by the amount of lubrication (Or otherwise) on the stud & nut. The same torque setting can yield hugely different values for the strain on the stud depending on the state of the stud. This is the reason you see different torque values for lubricated, dry, galvanised, teflon coated, etc etc nuts & bolts. So can you estimate the coefficient of friction of your stud & nut on any given day? I cant so an approximation (to within a few Nm) is more than good enough.

Have never broken a stud yet or for that matter had one come loose.

They are far more likely to come to harm down the local tyre shop when some random numpty goes at it with an air driven impact gun and no clue.

Anyway that's how we do it in the antipodes. Ill leave you to your torque wrenches, BSW threads and MG's. Happy Christmas.

[Paul D]

At the risk of being shot down in flames here, I tend to agree with djr81 on this.

If using a torque wrench on your wheel nuts makes you feel better and more secure, then that's fine, nothing wrong with it, but personally I don't really think it's necessary. I've spent my working life in the classic car business, and I've never torqued a wheel-nut in my life. Nor have I ever had one come loose on me or break a stud, and I've never seen (or been told of) any evidence of damage to a wheel caused by my not torquing it up correctly. This includes over 20 years (on & off) of competing in rallying and racing. I just use my experience to tell me when a wheel-nut is tight enough.

I have, however, had wheels come loose on me whilst driving - but never on a wheel that I fitted!

If you think about it, just about every nut & bolt on a car has a specified torque setting, but I'll wager that most of those who routinely use a torque wrench on their wheel-nuts don't also do same on every other nut & bolt on their cars.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by SidewaysFeltham

One reason emergency "Break Down" services are called out, is to remove a flat and fit spare because the car owner simply cannot undo the wheel nuts post the tender care of the average tyre shop!

It would be nice to get the "fitter" (for want of a better word) out of bed at 3am to undo the wheel nuts that he lovingly tightened up to about 250nm when it's p***ing with rain on the hard shoulder.
The worse ones we come across in the motor trade are locking wheel nuts that have been put on with a hammer gun far too tight and the key is so Knackered that it will not undo them.
But that's another story as locking wheel nuts are a pain in the arse for most mechanics as it can take ages to find the key, and that's even if the customer knows what one is and where it would be !!!!!!

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Paul D

At the risk of being shot down in flames here, I tend to agree with djr81 on this.

If using a torque wrench on your wheel nuts makes you feel better and more secure, then that's fine, nothing wrong with it, but personally I don't really think it's necessary. I've spent my working life in the classic car business, and I've never torqued a wheel-nut in my life. Nor have I ever had one come loose on me or break a stud, and I've never seen (or been told of) any evidence of damage to a wheel caused by my not torquing it up correctly. This includes over 20 years (on & off) of competing in rallying and racing. I just use my experience to tell me when a wheel-nut is tight enough.

I have, however, had wheels come loose on me whilst driving - but never on a wheel that I fitted!

If you think about it, just about every nut & bolt on a car has a specified torque setting, but I'll wager that most of those who routinely use a torque wrench on their wheel-nuts don't also do same on every other nut & bolt on their cars.

That may be true, which puts me firmly in the minority; I learned over the years that as a self-taught amateur (not in the trade, only fettle my own cars) it's best to do it right, do it once. Especially where a failure would prevent me finishing a race and/or cost me unnecessary spend.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Paul D

If you think about it, just about every nut & bolt on a car has a specified torque setting, but I'll wager that most of those who routinely use a torque wrench on their wheel-nuts don't also do same on every other nut & bolt on their cars.

Ok I'll go along with that, the only difference is that having a wheel fall of through being not tightened enough or too tight that the stud is at it's tensile strength limit and will snap when hitting a pothole is different to having a loose hooter mounting !

[Paul D]

David & Gordon - no argument from me on either count. As I said, if you're happier doing it that way, then nothing wrong with it - and yes, agreed that a wheel-nut is more critical than a horn mount. But it's no more critical than many other nuts/bolts that most of us probably never put near a torque wrench.

As for it potentially causing a failure - well, yes, I agree. But as mentioned, for me it's never caused a problem. You might say I've just been lucky, and maybe so, or maybe 30+ years experience has just given me a pretty decent 'feel' for knowing when a wheel-nut is tight enough.

Either way, it's each to their own isn't it? I guess we all do things in a way which we're happy with and we'll stick with our own personal methods - mine works for me, others will have their own ideas.

Happy Christmas to all!

[GORDON STREETER]

Yes after 53 years in the motor trade I can tighten a wheel nut up without a torque wrench perfectly well, the problem arises in this sue culture age where if it's your livelihood you can't second guess on anything ! fair enough if it's your own vehicle.
Only last week a mate of mine got saddled with a 5k bill after a young mechanic (that was working for him) overfilled a Golf turbo diesel with engine oil that wrecked the engine when the customer was 10 miles up the road.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

That may be true, which puts me firmly in the minority; I learned over the years that as a self-taught amateur (not in the trade, only fettle my own cars) it's best to do it right, do it once. Especially where a failure would prevent me finishing a race and/or cost me unnecessary spend.

At the risk of, well, at the risk of something. The last time a wheel came off my car is when you used it at the 'Ring and it came loose and broke the studs! I don't use a torque wrench on them.

Nor do I use one of the popular nut runners on the kart wheel nuts. After the last race I discovered a loose wheel nut. That wheel had been fixed on by a friend with a nut runner, not me with my wheel brace!

[RED21]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Yes after 53 years in the motor trade I can tighten a wheel nut up without a torque wrench perfectly well, the problem arises in this sue culture age where if it's your livelihood you can't second guess on anything ! fair enough if it's your own vehicle.
Only last week a mate of mine got saddled with a 5k bill after a young mechanic (that was working for him) overfilled a Golf turbo diesel with engine oil that wrecked the engine when the customer was 10 miles up the road.

I can only say for my self and where I work, that I pre torque wheel bolts then a final torque all per manufacturer specified process that I work for and then written on the service/job sheet so it is all traceable. If there any major work done like a sub frame drop or suspension work done the appropriate page of the repair manual is printed off with the fixing torque settings shown again for traceability to try and prevent any issues with a claim of negligence.
Like some here I have seen some way over tightened bolts & loose fixings resulting in some serious damage to the vehicle, but I have also been on the receiving end of loose fixings which I wouldn't want on any one so I take all possible care with critical areas of any job (& non critical)
Part of our work process is calibration of all torque wrenches every six months to maintain standards.
Yet I will admit on some fixings like a hose position bracket it will be done up by hand as the torque setting will be very low 6Nm on a M8 bolt and you do get a feel as to when to stop turning the spanner.

[SidewaysFeltham]

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...farage-leaked/

Clearly, Nigel didn't follow our little discussion!