Should Ron Have Signed Tommy?

[Tim 27]

Always found it ironic that the squeaky clean, politically correct () James Hunt should have been chosen to spearhead McLaren's title campaign with the blessing of Marlboro's John Hogan, yet 7 years later, under the leadership of Ron, but still with Marlboro, Tommy Byrne was considered too much of a rough diamond.
Should Ron have gone on talent alone, or did he do the right thing?

[S griffin]

Who knows, he certainly had the talent, even after his time in F1. I think I remember reading when meeting with Ron, his attitude let him down. Sometimes those things matter and in that case it seemed to. Such a waste of a great talent.

[knighty]

Martin Brundle summed it up perfectly in the recent BBC documentary.......Tommy quite simply talked himself out of a drive, by running his mouth after he got out of the car after the elusive Silverstone test, I can imagine Ron heard enough and made his mind up on the spot, Ron had been in the sport for 15-20 years up to that point, and he knew who he was looking for, someone clynical and professional to fit the McLaren way of doing things......McLaren was corporate and attracting big sponsors.......Tommy was as rough as they come.......a classic example of having plenty of driving talent, but looking and sounding like a reprobate (in Rons eyes)

James Hunt was quite a well spoken fellow, so he always passed the sniff test

[S griffin]

I read an extract from Tommy’s book in which he claimed he said the engine wasn’t quite right or something, but he didn’t say anything derogatory, so that’s his side of the story

[wnut]

This is just a convenient work of fiction.

Burns won the British F3 title in 1982, and was given a McLaren test.
1982 McLaren line-up was Lauda and Watson
1983 McLaren line-up was Lauda and Watson
1984 Lauda and Prost.

Where would Burns have fitted in?

[knighty]

exactly - there was no room for him at McLaren.......

I do buy it that Senna respected his skills a lot and put a few words in for him at several teams, so he did get a season, which is a lot more than most get.....but even then he was too arrogant and thought he knew better than everyone, and rubbed everyone up the wrong way, quite simply he was not a team player, and his people skills were awful.......so he never got another F1 drive.......simple as that.

In music terms, Tommy Byrne was the proverbial Brian Harvey from East-17.......great singer, but a terrible attitude and just another portaloo full of it

[Tim 27]

Originally Posted by knighty

I do buy it that Senna respected his skills a lot and put a few words in for him at several teams, so he did get a season, which is a lot more than most get.....

I struggle to believe Ayrton would have put a good word in for Tommy anywhere after Tommy had wound him up and played so many tricks on him during their time together at Van Diemen.
There was even talk afterwards that during the McLaren test the throttle pedal had been adjusted to not allow 100%, although I don't believe this for a second.
For all his faults, on talent alone, I would rather have seen him in a McLaren rather than Watson for 83.

[knighty]

heres the web article, yes the car was protected on the test day by having the throttle wound back a bit, as it was too valuable to have crashed by a rookie trying to prove a point......iniipendednt stop watched had Tommy 0.5sec quicker than Lauda.

http://en.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/8578.html

But for me, its just a test day, I race karts with my son 3 times per month to a professional MSA/FIA level........the track can easily vary 0.5 seconds from day to day, depending on weather and the previous rubber laid down......but overall the point stands, Tommy was brutally fast........but did he spend weeks setting up the car to be so fast in the first place - no he didnt, could he do the test driving side of it and work his way around problems with the engineers, certainly not, thats why he hated the Theodore people.

Tommy would have just been another Mansell, nobody in Williams or Mclaren has a good word to say about Mansel as he rubbed everyone up the wrong way with his bluntness and poor people skills........hence the likes of Lauda, senna and Prost hoovered up all the WDC's in the 1980's & early 90's

[Richard C]

I will be honest, I had never heard of him until this thread. So I have no option regarding the poll question.

Originally Posted by knighty

heres the web article, yes the car was protected on the test day by having the throttle wound back a bit, as it was too valuable to have crashed by a rookie trying to prove a point

But, I read that same article yesterday after Googling him. The rumors about the "less than full throttle" and times that showed him faster than published. Consider me dubious of some of that.

My thoughts is that the "less than full throttle" strategy makes little sense if they were trying to protect the car. A small reduction is likely to have no "positive" impact on the potential for reducing the chance of an incident that will damage the car. A significant reduction might but would be clear to the driver and observers. I think a small reduction that is not obvious might even increase the chance for an accident. Especially if the driver knows what the car should be doing, but is unable to extract the expected performance. So he may try harder and drive beyond the capabilities of the car to try to extract non-existent levels of performance.

If however they wanted to protect the engine, I can imagine lowering revs for example, but that would also likely be noticable and something hard to keep a secret. I am not saying it didn't happen, or wasn't attempted, but just that it doesn't make much sense. But I learned long ago that intelligent people make stupid decisions.

Regardless... if the reported times (even the slower, but still fast times as reported by the team) are accurate, I doubt he was experiencing any type of significant lack of power. Again, maybe someone tried something (such as simply adjusting the stop of the fuel pedal in an attempt to prevent full throttle. Maybe it didn't work as planned!

In the end, to me, this all sounds like a big fish story in which the truth continues to be stretched the more it is talked about and the more time that passes. Who doesn't love "if only" types of stories?!

Give it a few years and he will have had power reduced by 50%, been on old worn out tires, usage of just one gear, and lapping the circuit in under a minute!

Richard

[S griffin]

Certainly there seemed to be more to the test than meets the eye. I guess we’ll never know the full story. He seemed to have a bit of that Muhammad Ali in him, believing himself to be the best. Just a shame for his talent it never worked out.

I remember reading something Gary Anderson said, where in the 1984 Monaco F3 support race his car had a gearbox problem, where a gear or two was missing and the team were gonna pull him in after a couple of laps to save the car for the next race, but changed their minds when they saw him scything through the field from mid grid, to finish in the top six. To do that with a couple of gears missing showed he didn’t lack talent and commitment

[jimclark]

"To do that with a couple of gears missing showed he didn’t lack talent and commitment"
Talent? Agreed.

Commitment? 'Not an example of commitment I'm afraid...

[kipper]

I think a point worth noting is that the McLaren test was part of the team's obligations to Marlboro (so that they could offer a prize for sponsoring F3). As such, it wasn't a 'shoot out' for a drive or anything of that ilk. A reasonably similar comparison is the McLaren test for the Autosport/BRDC award - whilst a considerable number of drivers have tested, only Coulthard and Button have ever raced for the team (although I appreciate that a few more have been test drivers/reserves).

[E.B]

Originally Posted by kipper

I think a point worth noting is that the McLaren test was part of the team's obligations to Marlboro (so that they could offer a prize for sponsoring F3). As such, it wasn't a 'shoot out' for a drive or anything of that ilk. A reasonably similar comparison is the McLaren test for the Autosport/BRDC award - whilst a considerable number of drivers have tested, only Coulthard and Button have ever raced for the team (although I appreciate that a few more have been test drivers/reserves).

This. It was never a trial for a race seat.
This from MotorSport regarding that period of Tommy's career.

....he starred in the end-of-season non-championship Formula 3 race at Thruxton by finishing second with a Murray Taylor Racing Ralt RT3-Toyota.

Formula 3 success and F1 struggles

It was the prelude to a full season in the British series in 1982 and Byrne began by winning five of the opening six races. By mid-season the title appeared his and such was his success that Byrne joined Theodore’s Formula 1 team from the German GP. He retired in both Austria and Las Vegas but failed to qualify on a further three occasions. This F1 diversion almost cost him the F3 title – missing three races – but he clinched the title at the final round.

Part of his prize was an F1 test with McLaren but his confident manner annoyed many and perhaps thwarted progress. Instead, Byrne raced in European F3 for Eddie Jordan and then Anson during 1983 and 1984 respectively.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/d...rs/tommy-byrne

[Razzzor]

His stats don't look too great to me. Spent 7 years in Indy Lights and never won the title. Didn't even win a race the last 2 years, although they were par time. 2 years in F3 with just 1 win. Sounds like most of his "greatness" comes from his own mouth. I haven't read the book though.

[coppice]

I saw him race many times and he was sublime- very much the real deal . Out of the cockpit though , he could not have had a worse enemy than himself .

[Tim 27]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

His stats don't look too great to me. Spent 7 years in Indy Lights and never won the title. Didn't even win a race the last 2 years, although they were par time. 2 years in F3 with just 1 win. Sounds like most of his "greatness" comes from his own mouth.

I think it's unfair to judge his career only after his move to the States.
The "legend" was born during his early years in England.

RAC and P&O FF1600 titles 1980 (Ayrton the year after)
British FF2000 Champion 1981 (Ayrton the year after)
Formula Ford Festival winner 1981 (After Ayrton vacated the seat and turned his back on racing after his wife's ultimatum)
European FF2000 Champion 1981 (Ayrton the year after)
British F3 Champion 1982 (Ayrton the year after)

[peebee2]

And he didn’t win just one F3 race either...

[Aysedasi]

My interest in motor racing wasn't rekindled until about 1984, so Byrne didn't figure on my radar as such. When I watched the documentary, I was intrigued by the character. He was clearly very very good and had the talent to get to the top, but although I felt sympathy for a man who ought to have made it, I also felt almost angry at the very obvious chip on his shoulder about the likes of Ayrton and the monied Brazilians and the decisions that Tommy made. It certainly seemed as though he missed out really badly on sensible advice and guidance and that he couldn't recognise that his 'booze and birds' lifestyle was actually doing his career considerable harm. I ended up thinking, 'What a waste'.....

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by peebee2

And he didn’t win just one F3 race either...

Hmmm, neither did Johnny Dumfries, although he didn't have such a stellar CV as Byrne up to that point it must be said!

Perhaps there are parallels between Tommy and Jan Magnussen in terms of their huge talents compared to their character and outlook?

[wnut]

Why can't we see which way people voted?

[Aysedasi]

I guess it's the way the poll has been set up, we can only see the result.

[Samoan Attorney]

Tommy Byrne came up as a topic on another forum, yes there is life beyond Ten-Tenths, not much I grant you. This is a post I made at the time.



Q. Did DSJ ever write about Tommy Byrne? I just finished Tommy's autobiography last night and found myself wondering that.

My reply......

A bit of late night fiction is always good for sleep.



DSJ From the German Grand Prix



"Jan Lammers had been moved out of the Theodore Team and Tommy Byrne had been brought out of the Formula 3 school to replace him though the reason was a bit obscure............"



DSJ had this to say from The Austrian Grand Prix.



"Tommy Byrne just scraped onto the grid with the original Theodore TY02, but hardly justified his replacement of Jan Lammers."



"By lap 11 Patrese had already caught and lapped Tommy Byrne, which gives some idea of the discrepancy between the fastest and the slowest............"



TB barely warranted a mention at either the Swiss or Italian Grand Prix but at Las Vegas DSJ gave an insight to his thoughts on the Irishman.


"First reserve was the little Irishman Tommy Byrne in the Theodore, so by Jarier's bad luck he was lucky to start in the race. When Byrne arrived on the Formula One scene at mid-season he was rather confident, not to say cocky, and was quoted as saying that famous names did not interest him, as long as they did not get in his way! When he did actually qualify for a race the only time he saw some of them was when they lapped him and at Las Vegas he spun off while trying to keep out of the way of some of the famous names that were lapping him!"

No further comment needed from DSJ..

I was at a dinner last week sitting with a veteran Autosport journalist, we had witnessed Byrne in F3 during 1982. We both agreed that despite his claims he would not have coped with Martin Brundle let alone Ayrton...........but what would we know?

[knighty]

my point exactly......nobody likes a smart-ar5e......TB was a portaloo and full of it.......yes he was fast, but he did not posses the set-up skills to fix a slow car, work with the engineers and cure basic handling problems like low or high speed under or oversteer, you can only drive around so many problems, then you are driving a boat........no place for arrogant and cocky non-PR friendly drivers in F1, even in the 1980's.......not much of a discussion really.

[Tim 27]

Originally Posted by wnut

Why can't we see which way people voted?

Sorry, I don't see where I can alter it for people to see the current voting status.

It currently stands that 11 people think Ron did the right thing, and 3 didn't.

Seems Tommy is a very Marmite character!

[Tim 27]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Perhaps there are parallels between Tommy and Jan Magnussen in terms of their huge talents compared to their character and outlook?

Agree totally, both sublime, both fully deserving of a top line Grand Prix seat, but that's where the similarity ends.
Tommy was the first to tell anyone how good he was, Jan was definitely quieter.
Where Tommy caused his own downfall, I firmly believe that JYS, having once held him in such high regard, single handedly ruined Jan’s future as an F1 driver. I read that in 98, Jackie took Jan (and later Jos) to Oulton Park, to show them how they should be doing it, only a mere 25 years since he himself had driven a GP car competitively..