Super Tourers R.I.P.

[Dan Friel]

Now that BMP own the touring car series, is that the ST finished???

The new rules are to be launched next month after a consultation period with all the appropriate bodies - what are these going to be??

And now that BMP run 'Powertour' and TOCA, who will get what, and is there room for both packages?? I think there can only be one touring car series..

[ganda123]

It doesn't look good, but I personally hope that they see sense and don't make the BTCC only class B type cars, becuase it is the best super touring series in the world and it would damage its reputation to have lass advanced cars racing. Nothing against the class B runners but there must be ways of reducing the costs but keeping the faster and technically more advanced super tourers in the championship. One thing that might be of little encouragement is that BMP have worked very closely with TOCA in the past and might stay with their general ways of running the championship. I hope so...

[fatbloke]

According to Autosport, BMP are about to buy TOCA, and Alan Gow will be gone by the end of this month... looks like they man business in their quest to turn things around.

[RIKB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And now that BMP run 'Powertour' and TOCA, who will get what, and is there room for both packages?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this right? I thought powertour was run by the BRDC?

[kmchow]

Yeah, I TOTALLY agree with ganda123!! The TOCA proposed 2001 rules looke like an interesting balance. OTOH, I guess saving 20-30% is still not enough. Sighh...

Well, at least we'll also have some great memories.

[Crash Test]

Unfotunatly great memories don't get bums on seats at the race track or get big tv ratings....oh well...

[Dan Friel]

Powertour is run by the BRDC, but BMP do have the rights to the package..... Does that make sense???

Just like BARC ran the touring car races (for TOCA) at Brands last weekend...

I think class B will happen.. But for those at Thruxton / Brands or Croft will probably note.. there's not much difference between these cars and the BTCC cars of 1994 and before (pre wings). I'd be interested to compare lap times, does anyone know - or shall I do some research???

They certainly were spectactular through Dingle Dell on Sunday, although there were only four..

[Super Tourer]

Dan

Its def the big goodbye to ST. Nobody wants to make cars to the 2001 ST rules, the three manufacturers left on ran three cars to make a bigger grid, none of them really want to run three cars, too much hassle.

The BRDC can croak all they like about the fact that SP is their baby, but it will be the manufacturers that decide what series to run in. Outside of F1, championship organisers have always been at the mercy of car makers, they can dream up what rules they like but if nobody builds cars to those rules - it ain't happening. Look at the way that Merc & Porsche have manipulated Spoerts Cars rules over the last few years. Mercedes CLK a road car (yeah right !)- have you seen one ? apart from the 'one' that Merc used to appear with in the race paddock !

BMP know its make or break time for the BTCC, they are right to canvass opinion all round - something that TOCA probably didn't do enough of. The problem with AG was that he was always right, he didn't listen to enough people last year who were telling him what would happen - instead the old BS flowed out. Those of us at the TOCA dinner last year can still hear his words ringing in our ears.

To be fair TOCA has been caught out by a. the worldwide downturn in car sales and b. the aquisitions within the motor industry.

At the end of the day why did the MSA choose BMP instead of TOCA. Maybe the circuits felt that they weren't getting enought out of the BTCC, or maybe the MSA felt TOCA was a bit stale. Who knows ?

What we do know is that 2000 will be the last year we will see ST cars racing, 2001 will almost certainly be SP plus a bit, let hope for a full grid and the car makers that have been making positive noises - come up with some entries to back it up.

[ganda123]

I've just been watching the powertour on TV and if BMP do decide to change BTCC to Class B cars only it would be identical to that section of the powertour, and one of them would have to go. Cheaper supertourers are the way to go or the BTCC might not be with us much longer, I hate to say it but it's true.

[Sparky]

...Something always troubled me about ST...

When the cavaliers et al started using 18 and 19" wheels, they looked like a road car modified for racing. Real 'Win Sunday, Sell Monday' stuff.

When the aero kits came along, I thought, Oh well, they're still 'road cars' with some extra plastic bits bolted on - racier still.

But when did the rules change to allow full wheel openings? Was it all to do with the pit stops? Did teams decide that they'd had enough of collision - retirements?
I don't remember an announcement to the effect:

"All teams will produce one-off wings at great expense that bear little resemblance to factory equipment."

I'm familiar with bespoke panels in steel, for reduced weight and extra clearance, but fully radiused wings and flares (BMW rear arches!!) are not representative of production cars.

The end of the BTTC started with the introduction of the small changes like these...

Gripe over!

[kmchow]

I have to second Sparky's gripe. I am totally against the wheel flaring and flared wings. ST was great back in '96/'97.

Another criticism, when you start banning Quattro and RWD which powers Audi/BMW respectively, you know the series will go down the drain. Heck, you're basically picking on the two founding members of ST!!!
Sheesh, how stupid can one get...by attacking the hands that "feeds" you!

[DAVID PATERSON]

I'm with sparky and Mr Chow here. One of the best features of the class was that the cars looked like hot road cars, full wheel openings detract from that look and maybe 19" wheels are going a bit far too. Also the diversity of drive made the racing more interesting because it mixed up the order a bit from track to track and one sector to another. If all cars have the same spec, the racing may be closer but there must surely be less passing and noone wants that.

[Super Tourer]

The open wings were brought in for the first time last year.

The reason was to aid pit stops but also to reduce retirements, as only a fairly minor bump closed the wing on th the front wheel causing obstructed steering, tyre damage, etc.

I quite like the flared wings , they look foxy ....

[SNH]

I also agree that 4WD & RWD should not have been banned. Shame when all the cars have the same driven wheels.
Surely the speed, etc of the cars doesn't make any difference to the entertainment, (ie ST or SP), it's whether they overtake or look like overtaking that matters. Look at F1, very fast, no overtaking, then look at 2CVs, slow, but plenty of overtaking

[RIKB]

I hope you're not suggesting that we replace ST with 2CV's ?

[Super Tourer]

Interesting point on whether speed matters.

One of the best 'races' over a BTCC weekend is the Fiesta series. The racing is always close, entertaining and with plenty of overtaking. Its also one make - which leads us to the great BTCC debate, which way forward. You could argue that Rouses' Super Cars series is one make racing in disguise, the cars identical underneath with different make bodyshells. I am sure the racing would be close.

But the car makers will never go for it as they cannot gain an advantage. Peugeot only gave a bodyshell for the prototype to have a go at TOCA....& AG.

As Clive James once said "Team managers don't actually like seeing their cars racing, it makes them nervous"....

I don't think a mixture of 4WD,RWD & FWD cars will work either as protests and subsequent pull outs are inevitable.

[kmchow]

SuperTourer wrote:

&gt;I don't think a mixture of 4WD,RWD & FWD &gt;cars will work either as protests and &gt;subsequent pull outs are inevitable.
&gt;
We'll never know, but perhaps money and effort also play a big role. Audi was rumored to have spent over 20M US a championship. If the other automakers spend less than that or perhaps even half as much, it won't be a suprise if they lose to Audi?
Perhaps the other automakers should put their money where their mouth is? If all the automakers spent the same or close to the same amount, then I would be more softer on them?

For example, one reason why Porsche withdrew from FIA GT was because they claimed they couldn't keep up with MB racing budget. They openly admitted that instead of complaining about how MB should be punished,etc...

[SNH]

I wasn't suggesting replacing the BTCC with 2CVs, but that extra speed doesn't mean that the racing will be better. I think that top level racing has now become a manufacturers sport in the UK & F1. I guess it always has been in the States with NASCAR, but there the 3 manufacturers accept that they need a good show to get the punters in & also accept that the rule makers can change the rules to improve the show. I believe all NASCARs use some of the same bits & only the engines & bodies are different, much like Rouse's idea.

[ganda123]

The racing was great in 1998, probably the best year since 1994 in my opinion. (but I'll always be a bit biased on that one ) Why was it not so close, exciting and fun the year after? I don't think it's the cars - the drivers changed teams or we lost some (like Warwick, who added humour to the racing). There weren't any races like the Mansell Donington race in 1999, or the time when Radisich held up Menu twice at Oulton. Is it the cars or the drivers that make the difference to the series' racing?

[Simon G]

The point to make is that everyone said exactly the same things at the start of 90 when 2litre formula was introduced - not spectacular enough / cars are boring / etc.etc.

As the top teams / drivers start working on them then the standard will rise and therefore so will the speed and spectacle. The truth is that the cars you are seeing at the moment are on the whole run by amateurs or semi-pros.
Look at the steps forward made this year by the 306s with Vic Lee and the Focus over the previously dominant Integras - this type of improvement will be even more rapid if TWR / 888 / Prodrive get to develop the cars - they moan about it not being a challenge etc but as I said they the same thing 10 years ago and also because it means they won't be able to make as much money out of it as they could with ST.

I really feel there is no other way forward for the series than some sort of derivative of Super Production.

What does need to be looked at are the homologation rules - as we saw with Group A - they can be a recipe for disaster - it was this after all that sounded the beginning of the end for touring cars as we knew it.