What do you think should happen next?

av8rirl · 2 Oct 2002, 09:41 (Ref:393802)

Picture this:

Race starts at Brands, lap countdown is being shown on start/finish line, pace car flag comes out, two laps should be added to race, race resumes without laps being added, lap contdown continues, last lap board given, first 5 cars given chequered flag, flagman realises mistake (because laps should have been added) and takes in chequered flag, top 5 cars slow down significantly and are overtaken by some of the field, top 5 cars do not speed up and pull into pit at end of lap thinking that those that have overtaken them are novices and should be thought a lesson by COC. Remaining cars go on to do two more laps where the chequered flag is given once more?

Who wins?

Bodysnatcher · 2 Oct 2002, 09:52 (Ref:393808)

we are talking hypothetical here, are'nt we?

I would say the first (lead) driver to take the chequered wins - whether the flag was displayed at the correct time or not.
Start line should have sucked it in and kept the flag out - withdrawing it was the big mistake.

av8rirl · 2 Oct 2002, 10:06 (Ref:393816)

This is not hypothetical. It happened earlier in the year. Once I see some replies from others (that know better than me), I'll post what the outcome was.

Chris Y · 2 Oct 2002, 10:37 (Ref:393835)

Chequered flag has got to be king really - if it goes out, it goes out and means something. You can't take it back and let half the field keep racing.. It's only common sense.

Something tells me the outcome of this story is not going to follow the path of common sense though - I can't believe this actually happened!

Dan Friel · 2 Oct 2002, 11:06 (Ref:393871)

I saw this happen at brands earlier in the year in a 750 mc race.. result stood..

always go by the chequer i would suggest, or be very confident about the black and yellow rules..

Slowcoach · 2 Oct 2002, 12:32 (Ref:393973)

I have to go along with the Chequered flag is king theory, but it does raise a couple of interesting points, in reverse, as at a recent GP a certain famous footballer missed the lead cars but the result obviously stood on the correct number of laps....if 2 laps should have been added then the full distance was indeed 2 laps later - what a mess. Anyway I didnt even know that the laps should have been added - the only time I have been in a s/c race situation they have been timed races ie 1 hour ,so it made no difference. Frankly I never get to see a lap counter and would always go by the chequered flag!

Dave Brand · 2 Oct 2002, 12:52 (Ref:393997)

I'd say that the first car to be shown the chequered flag must be declared the winner, irrespective of whether the correct number of laps had been run.

I find it worrying that the chequered flag was taken after being seen by a number of competitors - this creates a dangerous situation where some drivers are on a slowing-down lap while others are still racing. This is one of those instances where you've got to stand by your mistakes.

ss_collins · 2 Oct 2002, 14:33 (Ref:394089)

Flag signals must be obeyed, if we drivers become uncertain about the flag signals then we have a very dangerous situation. when the chequer is out it is the end of the session no argument, the guy shouldn't have pulled the flag in as he created a dangerous situation. Race result declared when the flag came out first time.

Steven Hopper · 2 Oct 2002, 17:53 (Ref:394206)

This situation is covered in the 'Blue Book'. J5.3 states that 'Once the black & white chequered flag has been displayed the event is over, and may not be restarted.'

Dan Friel · 2 Oct 2002, 18:57 (Ref:394258)

Referring to the Blue Book, I don't think there's any process to object to the outcome of the race / championship at this late stage.. any appeal - which I presume there was, should have been taken further at the time..

rick vaux · 2 Oct 2002, 21:43 (Ref:394413)

OOOOH, Dan is correct, flag shown to indicate race is over...end of story....Who ever was resonsible for cock up was taken round the back and shot....Black van arrived and placed dead body in the back...No body now answereable to said cock up...case closed

Chris Y · 3 Oct 2002, 12:08 (Ref:394853)

You don't work for Octagon, do you Rick?

275 GTB-4 · 4 Oct 2002, 09:43 (Ref:395550)

Quote:

Originally posted by rick vaux
OOOOH, Dan is correct, flag shown to indicate race is over...end of story....Who ever was resonsible for cock up was taken round the back and shot....Black van arrived and placed dead body in the back...No body now answereable to said cock up...case closed

Who the hell was in race control and why wasn't the race immediately RED FLAGGED once the mistake was realised

I've seen a few situations like this and its

fri-ten-ing

**Stephen Green** · 4 Oct 2002, 11:48 (Ref:395655)

Because you can't Red Flag a race once the chequered has been shown. The chequered IS the end of the race! The only time both flags are shown is if there has been a race stop by red flags, a chequered can be shown at the startline to show drivers the race is now over and there will be no restart.

275 GTB-4 · 4 Oct 2002, 23:32 (Ref:396097)

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Because you can't Red Flag a race once the chequered has been shown. The chequered IS the end of the race! The only time both flags are shown is if there has been a race stop by red flags, a chequered can be shown at the startline to show drivers the race is now over and there will be no restart.

Don't want to start a controversy, but I have seen the RED used to good effect AFTER the chequered to stop very dangerous situations - its common sense......even the thickest of drivers then understand!!!

KayBee · 5 Oct 2002, 19:39 (Ref:396465)

Quote:

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4

Don't want to start a controversy, but I have seen the RED used to good effect AFTER the chequered to stop very dangerous situations - its common sense......even the thickest of drivers then understand!!!

At all the bike meetings I have marshalled at the red flag has been used in situations where the yellow flag would have been used at a car meeting after the chequered flag has been shown. That is to direct the competitors to parc fermé in once they had passed the first yellow flag.

rick vaux · 8 Oct 2002, 21:13 (Ref:398685)

PR... Chris....

:

**Stephen Green** · 9 Oct 2002, 07:16 (Ref:398972)

Bikes are a different set of rules. They do accasionally show the Red and Chequered on the start/finish line at the same time.

**Stephen Green** · 9 Oct 2002, 07:17 (Ref:398975)

For car meetings I should have added.....sorry.

av8rirl · 9 Oct 2002, 09:09 (Ref:399051)

Well in the end the result was declared at the end of the extended race (ie with the two laps added). The last lap board and chequered flag was taken out for the second time. As I had slowed down and pulled into the pits (and almost got thumped by a slower car who was still 'racing' and hadn't seen the original flag), I was deemed to be a DNF (along with the other 5 or so cars). After lodging £150 with COC, I was told that they were holding the result and that I could appeal to the MSA (but could not race in the final even under appeal).

They agreed that someone had made a mistake with the flag but were sticking with the decision to take it back in. What a joke!!!

RMR · 9 Oct 2002, 10:26 (Ref:399110)

that is unbelievable. I would be extremely p***ed off, especially at loosing a further 150! Sorry to hear that. That not on.

**Stephen Green** · 9 Oct 2002, 10:40 (Ref:399125)

I agree. Someone at the top needs their knuckles rapped for this!

darcym · 9 Oct 2002, 10:42 (Ref:399128)

What does Rick the PR chap from otogon say about this PR ?

**Stephen Green** · 9 Oct 2002, 11:33 (Ref:399167)

I don't think this has anything to do with Octagon. It's a matter for the organising club, the team and the MSA in my humble opinion. Octagon merely own the circuit which they in turn hire to the organising club.

av8rirl · 9 Oct 2002, 12:14 (Ref:399211)

I don't have a problem with Octagon. The club was 750MC and the COC was not a usual 750MC COC. I was treated with the courtesy deserved but at the end of the day basically told to f0ck off.

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