Roll Cages

[Stephen Green]

For some time I have been pointing out to scrutineers the fact that some drivers helmets are level or above the roll hoop/cage when racing. It seems the problem stems from the fact they are not scrutineered whilst sat in the car wearing their crash helmets.

It has got to the stage now where I have started to submit written reports to the Clerk of the Course in a vein attampt that something might be done about this before one of us has to go and scrape some poor persons head from the track.

Has anyone else noticed this or am I being 'picky'?

The question then is 'what do we do to stop this alarming practice?'

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Has anyone else noticed this or am I being 'picky'?

I've noticed it, & commented on it; maybe I'm 'picky' too.....

[Stephen Green]

It came to a head on Saturday when some of the Caterham drivers had helmets dangerously close to the top of the roll cage, or they had to drive with their head to one side to stop it hitting the cross member above their head.

I guess we will have to wait until we are asked to remove someones brains from the tarmac before anything gets done.

One has to wonder at the effectiveness of the MSA in these circumstances?

[EvilPumpkin]

What's actually in the regulations regarding this?

[Stephen Green]

The top of the helmet should be 2 inches below the roll cage as far as I'm aware.

[Grahambangers]

Hi all,

I have spoken a couple of time to the scrutineers at croft and from my understanding there is two problems..
1)drivers and cars not actually looked at as one..drivers out of car wondering around etc....
2)there is no actual reg for this...most scrutineers recommend there is couple of inches but its not enforceable.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
What's actually in the regulations regarding this?

Q 1.5.4 (a):

'An effective rollbar must be fitted with its top edge not less than 5cm above the helmet of the normally-seated driver.'

[ss_collins]

Are you aware that not all cars require cages?

[PipSqueak111]

FIA technical regs say that when taking a line from the top of the rear roll structure to the front roll structure, the helmet should be 70mm below the line between the 2 highest points. I should imagine this is a fair translation across to cages on the likes of Caterhams as well as single seaters.

Phill

[scrutineer]

Having read this forum for a long time and not participated in any of it I thought after reading this I should register and reply to this as it is a bit of an attack on the scrutineering practice. I can assure you that every safety aspect of the car is carefully looked at and roll over structure is one of those key safety features. Of coarse there are specifications of the distance from the top of the drivers helmet to the top of the cage however as you point out we do not usually see the driver sat in the car (and if we did he hasnt got a helmet on as he hands it to us so we can check it conforms) but if we did they usually go away and put a cushion or a piece of foam in which might put them above (how can we prevent this). The responsibility must also fall onto the competitor to ensure they are bellow (after all it is their head that is going to hit the floor).
But it is a problem that is taken seriously and if it is reported and we are informed and it is deemed to be unsafe he/she will be black flagged and brought in. As you say we don’t want to see a marshal scraping up brains from the tarmac (very well put) but we are the ones that have to stand up in court and defend our selves.
EP yes there are regulations for this (around 5 pages) they can be found in the competitors yearbook ‘bluebook’ under section Q subsection 1 however it is in metric nowadays and is 5cm above the drivers helmet.
If you have any questions please send me a msg or leave a note on here and ill try and answer most of them. Or when you are next at a race meeting come over and have a look round we don’t bite(and there will be a blue book floating around if you realy want a look) although I thought they would send you a copy with you MSA card. But more importantly if you think something is unsafe tell either a scrutineer or a clerk and it will get looked at.

[Stephen Green]

Yes, we are aware that certain historic cars do not require roll cages. However, there is no excuse for a modern day car not to afford the driver the maximum protection in the case of an accident. The problem as I see it is that if you are unfortunate enough to turn the car upside down, no matter how tightly you are strapped in, you will drop a little in the seat. Now take a line from the top of the roll bar to the front of the car and see if your head will be buried either in gravel or tarmac. In a great deal of cases it will be above that line and you could be dead.

If drivers want to kill themselves in this manner that's their business. The trouble is that the doctors and marshals have to clear up the bits that are left.

You may have gathered I feel pretty strongly about this!

I'm not having a go at any of those who have answered the thread, merely at the complete lack of sense that prevails over such an important safety issue.

[paul.hickman]

Stephen - 'vein' attempts and 'It came to a head on...' - all very medical. intended or Freudian...?

[scrutineer]

ss collins as you point out not all cars require a roll over structure these are certain classes (historics etc)

[Stephen Green]

Scrutineer, welcome to ten-tenths and many thanks for your very informed reply. As I mentioned earlier, I actually wrote two Observers reports but have to say that nothing was done to my knowledge.

Marshals do appreciate the work you do especially as we all share the same love and enthusiasm for the sport. What worries me a great deal is that there is going to be a nasty accident at some stage where the drivers head has been injured from not conforming to the regulations. Then as we all know, overkill (excuse the pun) happens and the world take the rule book and go mad rewriting it.

My post was made as an attempt to bring this to light and hopefully get things moving in the right direction.

Are you able to offer advice on how we can achieve this as I know we both have the drivers safety first and foremost?

[Stephen Green]

Sorry Paul, didn't intend to be humerous

[scrutineer]

One way we can all help is if pit/paddock marshals spot what they feel is a problem point it out before they are let out onto the track as they will know we are there in the paddock before races but not usualy for practice (as in one day event we are still going over the other cars).
If the spot them going out and radio it to race control it is amazing how quick they will have it sorted out.
Dave you seem to have a copy of the book as you say its under Q1.5.4a but the title for this section is 'other considerations' which means the drivers wont alway read them

[Stephen Green]

Many thanks for that advice, I will mention it to the paddock marshals at the next meeting. It would be helpful if the MSA were to issue guidance or advice to the organising clubs at the beginning of the season, or to point out that it may be an area worth looking into in greater depth?

[Novice]

Stephen at Brands the best place to catch the drivers whose crash helmet extends above or level with the roll cage would be the assembly area. Most of the drivers drive up to assembly without their crash helmets on so paddock would not be able to intercept them. For practice sessions assembly check scutineering tickets and noise tests so why not crash helmet / roll cage?

[Tony_J]

I remember a few years ago at Mallory Park a TR4A driver being told that his roll cage did not conform to specification in this respect. He spent several hours with hacksaw and arc welder extending the hoop above his head. He went on to race for a couple of seasons with this hoop extension.

[KayBee]

Originally posted by scrutineer
.If you have any questions please send me a msg or leave a note on here and ill try and answer most of them. Or when you are next at a race meeting come over and have a look round we don’t bite(and there will be a blue book floating around if you realy want a look) although I thought they would send you a copy with you MSA card.

For marshals they don't send a copy out with your MSA card - perhaps they should. However, I acquired one after the drawers were cleared out at one race meeting.

I would love to come over and watch what you are doing but you always appear to be very busy, first thing, and interruptions would not appear to be welcomed and then when you have a lull my duties call me trackside. However, I see from your location that you are based in Manchester will you be at Oulton on Saturday? I could drop by then if you are there. I would also like to know how do you become a Scrutineer? I have not seen the training/experience requirements listed anywhere.

[Stephen Sutton]

The Caterham ‘hot rides’ were the worse offenders on Sunday at Brands. One passenger must have been three inches above the roll bar. I know the drivers are comfortable under racing speed but a tyre could still blow or suspension fail. Imagine the press if a passenger was killed on a hot ride!

[Maisie]

Looking at Rob Urquhart's TVR in the paddock on Saturday, I was struck by the fact that, while his seat is one of the ones which curl round to make a side head restraint system at the top, the roll cage was actually INSIDE the curve! I thought that the chassis or cage had twisted during his accident and put the cage inside the seat's confines, but a team member told me that it was normal. Surely that can't be safe!!

[EvilPumpkin]

Scrutineer, I wouldn't agree that this is an attack on scrutineering practice. I think it's a valid point and questions are being asked. That's hardly an attack. Also, fascinating though your blue book may be, it's not readily available in Ireland and it's also not valid here. Neither are the MSA regs you refer to.

As for inserts in the seats, I agree that the onus has to be on the driver to a certain extent. However, I'm totally with Novice on this one - all cars have to pass through assembly anyway. Let's face it, if a driver attempted to go out on the track with no helmet on at all, he'd be intercepted immediately. The same could quite possibly be applied to people who are obviously at the same height, or even above, their roll cages.

Would any of our Rescue collegues care to speculate on what kind of damage someone could expect to suffer if they take a heavy roll and their helmet is the same height as, or higher, than their roll cage? I would imagine the least you could expect is a concussion and possibly whiplash. The scope for head and neck injuries seems to be very wide.

[scrutineer]

EP that is what I said? I know paddock marshals and pit marshals are busy but like I said before it is imposible for us to get to the paddock during testing (most of the time) so if marshals had a quick look as the cars were waiting and stopped and going out that they think is to tall then this would help a lot.
I know the 'blue book' is not valid over there but there will be a rule which will be very much the same.
As for what would happen lets hope we never find out

[Stephen Green]

At least we all agree that it's not safe to let drivers out in that condition. As long as we know who it is who can stop them getting on the track is what really matters. If we all work together as a team, then with any luck we can avoid an horrific accident in the future!