BMW & Williams: Whats going on?

Mania · 22 Oct 2002, 15:16 (Ref:410235)

From f1-live.com

Despite achieving their goals by finishing second in the 2002 championship season, BMW are considering their future options in the Formula One series, one of which is pulling out of the sport altogether.

The German engine giant have another two years to run on their current contract with the WilliamsF1 team, however when their time together comes to an end at the conclusion of the 2004 season there is no guarantee that they will continue their efforts.

"We must decide between building our own Formula One car, continuing our collaboration with Williams in a more appropriate fashion or quitting Formula One," Mario Theissen explained to the German press.

After a season that saw Ferrari dominate, taking 15 victories from a possible 17, the BMW Motorsport Director knows that seeing their dream of being world champions by 2004 a difficult feat to realise. However, he hasn't ruled out staying with the British team altogether, but did admit that they would need to work very closely together in all areas.

"We're too far behind Ferrari," he added. “We want to become world champions by 2004 and only with perfect collaboration in all areas, which includes the exchange of all data and common use of computer simulations and research facilities, can we beat Michael Schumacher."

This statement comes hot on the heels of Williams team boss Frank Williams stating that he would be very interested in selling BMW a stake in his team, an offer they have since rejected.

Anyone know what the story is with BMW? They seem to be leaning more and more towards setting up their own team..and that could mean Frank will be in trouble yet again.

JonesF1 · 22 Oct 2002, 15:29 (Ref:410243)

BMW wants a title and it looks like theyre starting to 2nd guess the Williams team. Some think this whole data-swapping thing is a trick by BMW to set themselves up for a team in 2005, but really, they should work more closely together anyway.

neilap · 22 Oct 2002, 15:49 (Ref:410254)

I am with FW on this one. If BMW invests in the team then they will get more data, otherwise see ya! Hopefully this is the press makiing a big deal over something that is not that serious. If not BMW is starting to look a bit weak.

Glen · 22 Oct 2002, 15:58 (Ref:410262)

Starting their own team would be suicide. Even Renault had the good sense to buy Bennetton - and Ford (about as big a company as you'll get realised that they needed the Stuart team's know-how to build on. Look at Toyota - giant budget and virtually nothing to show for it.

I don't get BMW - what more do they want?

Mania · 22 Oct 2002, 20:23 (Ref:410552)

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen
.

I don't get BMW - what more do they want?

Maybe their intention was always to start their own team..Maybe Munich believes they are now experienced enough to go it alone and win the title on their own.

The signals that have been coming from both sides indicate that Williams are desperate to sign a long term deal with BMW....much the same way as Mclaren have with Mercedes.

A few years ago..Frank ruled out ever selling any part of his team to anyone...yet now he is willing to do so with BMW..and BMW have refused.

So, it definately appears as if BMW have ambitious plans...certainly for William's sake I would hope that BMW does not leave...Frank has spent a lot of time rebuilding this team..and losing BMW would be a real downer.

ASCII Man · 22 Oct 2002, 20:24 (Ref:410555)

But what engines would you think Williams will use if BMW goes their own way or leaves?
I think Honda is the one of the few options... (but not the best..)

Sato san · 22 Oct 2002, 20:27 (Ref:410558)

Frank will be very worried if BMW leave him...surley that shows by the fact he offered to sell them some of his team .

Im also sure that Bernie will do all in his power to convince BMW to stay in F1..

Yoong Montoya · 22 Oct 2002, 21:07 (Ref:410639)

If BMW did leave, Williams could get Honda or Ford onboard instead. Hopefully, that will never happen.

If BMW drop Williams, they would be making a big mistake.

z2252314 · 23 Oct 2002, 00:11 (Ref:410800)

I posted a topic on this a couple of weeks ago. I made the suggestion that BMW where dissapointed with their current results, and that they may consider their own works team if things didnt improve. The majority of the forum thought I was nuts. "BMW are happy, its their third year and their coming second...blah blah blah ". Well it appears that everything isnt as merry as it seems. The truth is BMW have produced a vastly superior engine to Mercedes, yet this fact is concealed because their not winning, and now their level pegging with Mclaren. In my opinion, BMW have got a point. They have come out with the best engine the last two years, and have been dissapointed with an inferior chasis. A partnership is only successful if both parties are contributing at the same standard and williams have got a lot of improving to do.

Quote:

If BMW drop Williams, they would be making a big mistake.

If Williams dissapoints BMW again, they would be making a big mistake. I think Williams needs BMW more than BMW needs Williams.

greg.n · 23 Oct 2002, 00:24 (Ref:410806)

I agree. The value of a F1 team is in its ability to compete at the top of the league. If you lose your works engine deal and don't get another the value of your team is halved overnight. Not only that, if you don't get another works No.1 engine deal you may lose your whole team within 12 months.I have always felt that the interest of the manufacturers was not in F1's best interests. They'll look after themselves first and have no regard for the tteams they are associated with. It's not wrong, just business. The only security is having the manufacturer hold a large minority holding in your team. that signify's a degree of long term commitment but leaves the ron denis's of this world with enough equity to start again with another maunfacturer or pursue other projects. Frank will be out on a limb if BMW go elsewhere-maybe Honda or toyota as a lease engine deal but that makes him an also ran like Sauber.

EERO · 23 Oct 2002, 01:22 (Ref:410824)

Quote:

Originally posted by z2252314
I posted a topic on this a couple of weeks ago. I made the suggestion that BMW where dissapointed with their current results, and that they may consider their own works team if things didnt improve. The majority of the forum thought I was nuts. "BMW are happy, its their third year and their coming second...blah blah blah ". ..

Count me as one of the nay-sayers, and given the degree to which this has appeared across the net, I'd say you were right and we were wrong.

Honestly, I think it would be very tough for BMW to start a team from scratch. Their best option is to strengthen their ties with Williams. They don't seem inclined at the moment to do this-which isn't to say that tomorrow it might change. But I think the third option of a complete withdrawl remains a strong possibility.

This scenario points to the concerns many of us have expressed since the advent of increased Factory involvement: with a lack of results, the big Manufactures may go away and the money and the engines will leave with them. In the period when only a couple of Manufacturers remain, those that do will clean-up. If you think last season was uncompetitive, wait till only Ferrari and Mercedes are left.

Ford have already exibited the uncertainty of their investment. Peugeot is long gone. Honda cannot sustain the investment forever and TOYOTA will leave once they have crushed Honda.

BMW's uncertainty with Williams, one of the most capable teams, doesn't bode well for the health of the whole series.

Jukebox · 23 Oct 2002, 01:27 (Ref:410829)

Not a suprise to me at all considering on how bad the looks of William's chassis are.

You have a very good engine stuck in a terrible car...simple as that.

neilap · 23 Oct 2002, 03:35 (Ref:410876)

Williams will need to secure a tire deal similar to the Bridgestone/Ferrari. Personally I don't think the chassis was that bad. If it was it would look more like Toyota did. Some "know it alls" were saying the Toyota was the 2nd most powerful motor on the grid. Yet they did not have the pace. To me, the Ferrari tire deal is what has sealed the fate of all of their competitors. Michelin will have to put out a tire that is clearly superior to the Bridgestone for Williams and the rest of the Michelin shod teams to beat or even compete with Ferrari.
Williams and BMW need to point the finger in the appropriate direction. It is the rules that allow for this type of domination, not a slightly weaker chassis.

Sato san · 23 Oct 2002, 05:06 (Ref:410898)

BMW have produced a very good engine , but maybe not a very reliable one . So BMW shouldnt be too unhappy with the car Williams have produced.

I think both BMW and Williams need to raise their game next season against the might of Ferrari.

Jukebox · 23 Oct 2002, 05:15 (Ref:410907)

BMW engines looked unreliable because they have to boost it's performance in order to compensate the lack of aerodynamically friendly chassis that Williams built.

Just ask yourself this question..would a top grade A team change their designs at least 2-3 times a season? Ferrari and the Macs didn't have to.

BMW engines revs more than 19,000rpm....just imagine of how well they have developed their engine. Yeah, i've said in the past they have a seal problem but that's not the issue now...because those gasses had been exiting to much because of the needed power boost.

Sato san · 23 Oct 2002, 05:21 (Ref:410910)

I take what your saying Juke , but they need to finish races dont they . I think we all can see that Williams havent produced the chassis that they need to this year , but at the end of the day its up for BMW to produce a engine that can see them through to the end of the races also .

If its not gonna be reliable , dont use ket the boost be used.

Jukebox · 23 Oct 2002, 05:29 (Ref:410915)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sato san
If its not gonna be reliable , dont use ket the boost be used.

With the Macs improving, they needed the boost or they will be left behind the Mercedez powered chassis.

Red · 23 Oct 2002, 05:29 (Ref:410916)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mania (actually Mario Theissen)
continuing our collaboration with Williams in a more appropriate fashion or quitting Formula One[/B]

I believe that should explain "what's going on".

As for BMW being happy, I am one of those who say that. 3rd year, second in WCC is not bad at all. Not bad. Problem is that I feel that that second could be closer than it was. BMW could not get better than secvond, but certainly they also felt that their engine deserved more than just 7 poles.

Sato san · 23 Oct 2002, 05:46 (Ref:410925)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox
With the Macs improving, they needed the boost or they will be left behind the Mercedez powered chassis.

yes i see that , but its back to the chicken and the egg situation isnt it ...they need to use it to keep up with the others , but they risk not finishing at all in the process...im not critising , im just saying it must be tough to decide the right path to follow sometimes...but at the end of the day , BMW need to produce a more reliable engine in the same way that Williams need to produce a more reliable chassis .

Jukebox · 23 Oct 2002, 05:52 (Ref:410928)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sato san
BMW need to produce a more reliable engine in the same way that Williams need to produce a more reliable chassis .

I see that your still defending the Williams eh...in a way yeah but the chassis needed to be revamped entirely.

Sato san · 23 Oct 2002, 05:55 (Ref:410933)

No.......Juke your just trying to wind me up ! hehehehehe

just speaking the truth like i always do without any bias what so ever !

Jukebox · 23 Oct 2002, 05:57 (Ref:410934)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sato san
No.......Juke your just trying to wind me up ! hehehehehe

just speaking the truth like i always do without any bias what so ever !

As usual Sato...cause that's when the fun begins

Super Tourer · 23 Oct 2002, 07:00 (Ref:410951)

It's fair to say that Michelin probably didn't work as hard with its teams as Bridgestone did with Ferrari. JPM had several races effected by tyres. This should be one of William's main focuses of attention during the off-season.

Borzacchini · 23 Oct 2002, 08:27 (Ref:410987)

According to the German Press BMW have already decided to build their own car. I think that they are just putting pressure on Williams, so that they can easily buy shares into the team.

Mania · 23 Oct 2002, 16:02 (Ref:411346)

They`ve already said they dont want to buy shares in the team - so I dont think thats the case at all.

BMW obviously want a title very badly...and they may be losing confidence in Williams...I think they realize that Williams dont have a Rory Bryne or a Adrian Newey and without someone like that in the technical team...Williams will never beat Ferrari.

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