Jordan X Minardi Who deserves more support?

[Joe Machado]

As posted on GP.com Ron Dennis feels Jordan deserves more than Minardi. What do you think?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns07803.html

[NiceGuyEddie]

Every team should be able to come up with sufficient budget. If they haven't got the money to compete, than they shouldn't compete.

But to answer your question, if a choice had to be made I would go for Jordan. They have been far more succesful in a shorter amount than Minardi, therefor being more in compliance with everything that F1 stands for, than Minardi has ever been.

Sure, Minardi wins the public vote on being the regular underdog, but the Minardi I had any sympathy for belonged to Giancarlo.

[Mekola]

I think Ron said that because he believes that Jordan could made more efforts and more results supporting them than Minardi. But, in the other way, Minardi nearly never (perhaps only in 1989-91: Remember Martini leading in Portugal '89?)managed to have a budget in what they can make some respectable results.
My vote goes to... Minardi, but if I must accept the crude rules of nature I prefer they support Jordan and recommend Paul Stoddart it will be better move Minardi to TWS and back to EuroBoss series.

[GXH]

If u cant afford the entry fee and have enough money 4 the year, then ur in the wrong sport

[The Moon Monkey]

Although i feel uneasy that the top teams may need to subsidise the likes of Jordan and Minardi, my vote would go for Jordan on the basis that they have won races and still have potential. Unfortunately, I can never see Minardi moving off the back row of the grid and the identity of that team was really lost when Paul Stoddart took over the team.

I also feel very sad that Eddie Jordan has lost the plot so much that in the space of 4 seasons his team has gone from winning 2 races and finishing 3rd in the constructors' championship to needing a hand out to compete in f1....

[Jay]

Originally posted by GXH
If u cant afford the entry fee and have enough money 4 the year, then ur in the wrong sport

hmmm...I'm thinking if Bernie had this attitude there'd be 16 cars on the grid in Melbourne. Would that be alright? How about 14 if Sauber ran into trouble?

[Valve Bounce]

Even Stevens. Both require the same help.

[allen_overy]

Don't take heed of what Ron says! Remember the row over price-money when Prost closed shop. They are adversaries with opposite viewpoints, with Stoddart talking about a bigger share of the money because Minardi was "promoted" to 10th slot previously occupied by Prost. Apparently, Ron looked the other way round.

Note the words used by Ron in his statement. He first mentioned that "the Jordan team had a long history" and thus should have a bigger share from tv tax benefit but his main point was what follows "as the team[Jordan] was led by a colouful and aggressive individual whose skills are finely honed...than that of Paul Stoddart". Go figure.

I see this as a deliberate personal dig by Ron on Stoddart.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by allen_overy

I see this as a deliberate personal dig by Ron on Stoddart.

Its about time too!

[Irv the Swerve]

You have to respect Ron Dennis and McLaren Mercedes etc....they are great and all that.

At the same time, no one in F1 speaks more gibberish than Ron Dennis. Absolutely no one, because of the respect he supposedly deserves. He is a bit like Arsene Wenger, he sees it only his way and not anyone elses. At times he can be a right muppet. When he says Jordan should get more than Minardi, he is working an angle. Whether it is getting Michelin to work harder or eyeing up Justin Wilson or whatever, he has an underhand motive for everything. There is nothing wrong with that, but i hate bullies, and Ron is a massive bully.

Give Minardi whatever help is possible, i say. They are fighting to survive and bring up the numbers in a dying sport. Dying thanks to the likes of Ron Dumbass.

[Valve Bounce]

You've got that right.

[chrisgr31]

Personally I feel that all the teams that are entered for this years championship deserve to me there. Those that cannot afford to turn up this year need to be given the financial support to compete this year.

This of course assumes that costs are going to fall in the coming years.

Its all very well having the manufacturers involved, but as we know they do leave the sport occsionally and thats when we need privateers.

[Scott75]

Typical Ron Dennis comment, he wants everything his own way. Why doesn't just shut up and get on with racing instead of this vendetta against Stoddart, what does Ron want to see another team go bust. We need teams like Minardi and so forth, if they weren't there you would only have about 8 cars on the grid. Go Minardi and Jordan and I would love to see Ferrari thrash Rons cars yet again. Then he'll start crying again.

[scrappy]

if jordan are really that skint then why are they paying firman to drive?

[Glen]

It is ridiculous to suggest that Minardi have less rights because they lack something in pedigree. Just because Stoddart is a terrible maoner (and he is) doesn't change his position - if being a terrible moaner were taken into account when running F1 Ron Dennis would be on permanent suspension.

[Red]

From the Jordan vs Minardi point of view, Ron is wrong. Minardi has more history behind them. But from the Eddie Jordan vs Paul Stoddard (which I believe is what Ron wanted to say with: "Whilst he [Eddie Jordan] has been known to complain to a degree, it pales into insignificance in comparison to the complaints of Paul Stoddart, who has little track record in respect of grand prix racing) he's spot on.

[Bononi]

I've been supporting these teams - I love the underdogs - for a long time.

But, if a choice should be made, I'll go for Minardi. At least they could have some good times like Jordan already did.

[Adam43]

From Ron's point of view. Stoddart knew what F1 was like before he came in. And then he'd been there hardly any time at all and started complaining about the finances and wanting hand outs. I can see why another team boss would get annoyed at this.

As for the fighting fund (for Minardi and Jordan) Roebuck brings up a couple of interesting points.

Roebuck, http://www.autosport.com/featuresask...=21974&s=5&l=3
Recently, it was proposed that the richer teams, and manufacturers, should contribute to a 'pot', out of which both Minardi and Jordan could feed, but there now seem doubts that in the end that will come to be, for two teams – neither English, I'm led to believe, so draw your own conclusions - apparently voted against the idea. And one team owner, while agreeing to contribute, said to me, "D'you suppose there's any other business in the world, in which companies shell out to subsidise their rivals?" It was a fair point.

Firstly it seems McClaren is willing to actually contribute to this, despite Ron's reservations about such a thing.

And, more importantly, is the quote from a team owner. Which, whether it is Ron or not (I suspect it could be a number of them), is a fair point.

[NiceGuyEddie]

And one team owner, while agreeing to contribute, said to me, "D'you suppose there's any other business in the world, in which companies shell out to subsidise their rivals?" It was a fair point.

Like I said in the Minardi Fighting Fund-thread. It is charity. And one upholding a market comes down to charity, the market is too weak to exist on its own. So why not get back to reality, and start over again? An all-manufacturers series for all I care.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Irv the Swerve
At the same time, no one in F1 speaks more gibberish than Ron Dennis. Absolutely no one, because of the respect he supposedly deserves. He is a bit like Arsene Wenger, he sees it only his way and not anyone elses.

And this is why both Ron dennis and Arsene Wenger are so successfull.

[EERO]

Originally posted by GXH
If u cant afford the entry fee and have enough money 4 the year, then ur in the wrong sport

When the $39,000,000 budget Minardi has for 2003, isn't enough to run a season. We have a problem.

When Ferrari spend upwards of $450,000,000, we have a level of spending that is hugely out of whack with reality. There quite simply is not enough money available to fund every team to this level. Given the huge recent downturn of the World's markets and the prospect of War in the Mid East, we can almost be certain that that no other team could raise that sort of lucre.

Oh, and then there's the fact that Fiat, Ferrari's Sugar Daddy, is about to tank, there's serious doubt that Ferrari's budget for 2004 could match Minardi's!

Let's be reasonable, costs have become too high and the survival of recently healthy teams is in question. The grid is expected to be 20 cars minimum and yet NONE of the top teams are willing to run third cars if any of the Minnows goes by the wayside.

So please tell me what the solution is.

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Even Stevens. Both require the same help.

Ditto.

[EERO]

quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------Roebuck, ...And one team owner, while agreeing to contribute, said to me, "D'you suppose there's any other business in the world, in which companies shell out to subsidise their rivals?" It was a fair point.
____________________________________________________


The quote Adam posted above shows some seriously flawed thinking and I've seen this logic repeated ad infinitum.

The point is often made that teams are "competitors" and therefore not responsible for one another's welfare. But I think there is a confusion, actually a conflation of the concepts of being Economic or Marketplace Competitors versus being Sporting Competitors.

In the former situation, you have every desire to see the demise of your compettion, in fact it is your goal. Yet in Sport, the annhilation of you competitor would undermine your own purpose, i.e. with no one against whom to compete, why do you exist?

All the teams in Formula One have symbiotic relationship; we have winners and we have almost winners and we have Minardi. As simple and as obvious as this sounds, the logic of it seems to be lost on many.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by EERO
quote:
The point is often made that teams are "competitors" and therefore not responsible for one another's welfare. But I think there is a confusion, actually a conflation of the concepts of being Economic or Marketplace Competitors versus being Sporting Competitors.

In the former situation, you have every desire to see the demise of your compettion, in fact it is your goal. Yet in Sport, the annhilation of you competitor would undermine your own purpose, i.e. with no one against whom to compete, why do you exist?

All the teams in Formula One have symbiotic relationship; we have winners and we have almost winners and we have Minardi. As simple and as obvious as this sounds, the logic of it seems to be lost on many.

Thats because the logic isn't there.

Of course Formula 1 is an economic entity, a business. This for the sole reason they are exploiting economic activities. Formula 1 in itself is no economic market, its an enterprise which takes part in the economic market of mondial entertainment. In this aspect, the teams share a common goal, which is the profitability of Formula 1.

On the other hand, they are competitors in a sportive way. This, in fact, means that they compete against eachother, as not only the laws of sporting competition require, but the nature of Formula 1 requires it as well. It is it's raison d'etre. Without it, Formula 1 is no competition.

Therefor, there is no situation thinkable in which sport competitors are helping eachother out. Like I have said before and repeated many times since, when Formula 1 has to rely on internal sponsoring, than it is already dead.

In this regard, it is pointless to keep this alive. When Jordan and Minardi can't keep up, run with an 18 car grid. If the new regulations have come too late for Minardi and Jordan, thats too bad, but teams come and go.

Run with an 18 or 16 car grid (Champcar doesn't seem to bothered about it). An 18 car grid can make up for spectacle, as long as the teams are competitive, which they tend to be in mid-field. Are races doomed after startingcarshes in which we loose 6 or 7 competitors before the first corner? No, they're not. Its about quality not about quantity.

Secondly, create an environment to make it interesting for new teams to enter.

If this doesn't work, than Formula 1 as we know it as no place in this world. But since it obviously has, I'm convinced it'll work out. Sure time is running out, but its the only way to have a serious, pure competition. And there is still more than enough momentum left to pull it off.

Formula 1 is a business, and in business, you'll have to take it down before you can rebuild it.

Patching up may take care of the symptoms, but not of the real problem. The real problem is Minardi's and Jordans lack of budget, and that budget will never be sufficient, no matter what rulechanges. To bigger teams will find ways to spend their money on car development, rulechanges or not.

A maximumbudget would help though. When they find ways to police it, I would be all for that.

Untill then, we need healthy competitors, not competitors that rely on hand outs.

[I Ate Yoko Ono]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
Every team should be able to come up with sufficient budget. If they haven't got the money to compete, than they shouldn't compete.

But to answer your question, if a choice had to be made I would go for Jordan. They have been far more succesful in a shorter amount than Minardi, therefor being more in compliance with everything that F1 stands for, than Minardi has ever been.

I am in 100% agreement with you NGE. You have said it very well. Other than a few good runs with Martini/Nannini/Morbidelli over a decade ago what have this team EVER contributed to F1? Whatever it was, it is at an all time low with their frankly intolerable incumbent team boss.

F1 team bosses aren't used to having a penniless moaner about the house. The Piranha club don't take too kindly to people pleading poverty either. Minardi have either got to put up or shut up...or simply go and do something else PS is capable of raising money for. The same goes for EJ to an extent too - although at least he's not a whinger.

All this talk about richer teams helping poorers ones is absolute tollyrot (I'm not sure if that's an actual word by the way but I'm in full flight).

Could you see FIAT giving Renault money because they felt sorry for them as they were having a bad year and were losing money?

Perhaps FOX could donate several billion to CNN or Sky.

No, wait a minute - let's get all the European airline carriers to help out Continental and American as they are in bankruptcy protection. Perhaps Paul Stoddart could ask his countrymen at Qantas to chip in. After all, it would be a terrible shame for the airline industry to lose AA wouldn't it!?

I've got it! Bill Gates should give several billion to Netscape to keep 'em going.

The whole idea is as ridiculous, if not more so than the ideas listed above. Minardi & Jordan should build their own cars each year. Nobody should donate funds to help them OTHER THAN SPONSORS THEY HAVE ACHIEVED AGREEMENTS WITH.

[EERO]

Originally posted by I Ate Yoko Ono
I am in 100% agreement with you NGE. You have said it very well. Other than a few good runs with Martini/Nannini/Morbidelli over a decade ago what have this team EVER contributed to F1? ...

They race and by virtue of their continued passion for the sport have many fans.

Originally posted by I Ate Yoko Ono
Could you see FIAT giving Renault money because they felt sorry for them as they were having a bad year and were losing money?

Perhaps FOX could donate several billion to CNN or Sky.

No, wait a minute - let's get all the European airline carriers to help out Continental and American as they are in bankruptcy protection. Perhaps Paul Stoddart could ask his countrymen at Qantas to chip in. After all, it would be a terrible shame for the airline industry to lose AA wouldn't it!?...The whole idea is as ridiculous, if not more so than the ideas listed above. Minardi & Jordan should build their own cars each year. Nobody should donate funds to help them OTHER THAN SPONSORS THEY HAVE ACHIEVED AGREEMENTS WITH.

I8YO, you missed the point. Ferrari and Minardi are not Marketplace competitors. They are both participants in a collective which will not survive without the continued health of its members. Minardi's budget should be sufficient to run a season of F1. The continuted strospheric F1 budgets cannot continue and the money taken in needs to be distributed in a more equitable way.