black/yellow flags - can one overtake?

[paul.hickman]

A dilemma! During what was really a formula libre race at the Silverstone HSCC/VSCC meeting yesterday the leading car was faced with the following situation:

The race having been neutralised with the black/yellow flag, restarted with the field well strung out. Responding to the green flags the Formula 5000 car charged off and rapidly closed on the field who were still obeying the black/yellow. Somewhere around Abbey the inevitable happened – fast leader met slow back markers – does he overtake? Does he hold back? (which choice he made I know not).

Thoughts would be welcomed – especially as this was not only a dilemma for the driver but the clerks as well…

[Bob Pearson]

The driver had already been released and so would have been entitled to pass unless a yellow was being shown.
This is just another of the many examples of why all b/y flags should be used to start the Nov 5th bonfires.

[Mark Mitchell]

The fault lies solely with the Clerk!
He should have kept the caution going until all cars were bunched together.
Another example of why we should burn this damned flag!

[Claire]

Originally posted by Bob Pearson

This is just another of the many examples of why all b/y flags should be used to start the Nov 5th bonfires.

You will get your wish next season as the MSA are getting rid of the black and yellow flag.

[Flagman]

More race stops and/or more shunts behind the safety car then.

[simon drabble]

the race ended as bizarrely with the two front cars getting the chequered flag and the other cars getting the green flag at the same time so whilst they were slowing down the other cars were still having to do another lap - confused? we all were! thank goodness I was spectating!!!

[Peter Scillitoe]

Originally posted by Bob Pearson
The driver had already been released and so would have been entitled to pass unless a yellow was being shown.
This is just another of the many examples of why all b/y flags should be used to start the Nov 5th bonfires.

So, next year we will have lots more red race stops, extra costs as clubs have to have a safety car with the appropriate level of competition licence holder, experienced safety car observer, etc, etc. With lots of delays I'm sure that the marshals and spectators will just love it!

The Black and yellow was a brilliant idea by the late John Nicol, and works very well at Brands as the large majority of marshals will tell you. The problem is that a number of clubs and/or circuits have never really got to grips with it.

[JimW]

Somewhere around Abbey the inevitable happened – fast leader met slow back markers – does he overtake? Does he hold back?

Technically, I believe that the instructions say that when the green is shown at the startline all b/y are withdrawn at once all round the circuit. Leaving aside thoughts about the speed of light (unless the instructions are given by radio to all flag points), this should have obviated the problem you mention.

Unless the HSCC have been inventing their own variants of the rules. In which case, it would serve them right.

Jim

[mark ch]

It may work at Brands... But it doesn't work for most circuits/ clubs and the world doesn't revolve around Brands. I'll be glad to see it go...

[Stoowert]

Reluctantly, I must agree with Jim on this one. As soon as the Green is shown on the startline, then the track is "green", not just bits of it! The battenberg flag IS a great idea, and I'll be sad to see it go as it always gives us the option to carry on racing after a short interlude. Just because some clubs find slick tyres and disc brakes a bit radical, we shouldn't ban 'em! If it can work at Brands, it can work anywhere. Just use a bit of positive energy and your common sense! Mind you, if we had land lines at all tracks, it would resolve it's self, or is instant 2 way communictions a bit too "outside the box?"
:confused:

[Chigley]

The fault lies solely with the Clerk!
He should have kept the caution going until all cars were bunched together.
Another example of why we should burn this damned flag!!

The fault was with CoC and the F5000 driver. I suspect that if his lap times under the battenberg were checked he would still have been faster than the backmarkers could have been under race conditions.

I know he was spoken to by the CoC, but, again a safety car would have been more effecive than the shambles that occurred on Sunday.

Yet again we have a driver who doesn't know what "in the region of 50mph" means and we had a CoC who was under pressure from a curfew and obviously couldn't wait for the train to form properly (if it ever could have).

I agree burn the bl**dy flag it has never worked properly and a safety car is much, much better, safer and efficient.

What are the regulations, qualifications, requirements etc to operate a safety car on a circuit to keep a field of cars at approximately 50mph. Its hardly high speed work.

To those who say it "always" works at Brands, how come we read and witness so much about big accidents on the startline as a result of Battenburg use with cars acclerating in the expectation of a green flag only to have to slow down again when foiled.

I'm glad this thread was started as I was going to raise the issue under the title "Battenburg farce....again"

[Snapper Baz]

Does this now mean that marshals will be expected to risk life and limb (more than they already do)by venturing out to try and move cars cos'someone in a suit in a nice warm and dry race control wants the racing to continue then?

[Pike]

If drivers obeyed the yellow flags in the way they are meant to be then there is no need for b/y flags, a sector can be neutralised by use of the waved yellow if drivers obeyed it as it should be. Therefore no need for safety cars unless they are multiple incidents wound the track.

[Craig]

Originally posted by Claire
You will get your wish next season as the MSA are getting rid of the black and yellow flag.

Thank god for that. I'm sure the Fairman family will be relieved to hear that. Bit late though really

[Woolley]

is instant 2 way communictions a bit too "outside the box?

Absolutely not, Stoowert, keep mentioning it at every opportunity, I'll be right behind you. I totally agree that it would cure the basic problem of the B/Y. It could work, it should work, but the regs are not currently right.

[paul.hickman]

It may sound strange, but I think that I agree with bits of most postings! The black/yellow neutralises the race, the lead car acts as a pace car (at 50 mph or thereabouts), the crocodile builds and at the green flag release the pack resumes its charge into the unknown. Should work!

So what went wrong? Primarily the lead car did not do what was required - with the resulting half lap straggle of cars. Perhaps too the clerk ought to have been a little clearer in his thought processes as to what was almost an inevitable situation.

And I agree that the leader could in law have overtaken the field - but methinks that chaos would have resulted with some of those overtaken deciding that racing was for real again... others unsure ... and others continuing at their pedestrian pace.

As to the demise of the flag, I agree with Peter in that its introduction (by John) was a forward thinking innovation. Sadly its benefits have not generally been realised through poor understanding and perhaps an unwillingness by some drivers to neutralise their lead. I for one am sorry to see the flag go - especially when I recall the antics of pace cars over the years - and the ridiculous number of instructions to flag marshals (on one occasion 3 different regulations for pace car flags at the same meeting!)

And in conclusion - for the benefit of Stoowert and the Racegypsy - I am a convert to the landline system (even over radios)! Having had the beneifit of a truly professional approach to communications at the CART meeting a couple of weeks ago I know that there is much to be learned from our US cousins.

[Stephen Green]

Once again I find myself agreeing with Paul and let's not forget that Peter also makes a very valid point with regard to costs to the clubs!

I am sorry to see the B/Y flag disappear as I believe it was a wonderful invention, along with Racing Ahead. The B/Y is in fact a full course yellow as our American friends would remind us. It works extremely well there and, with the right pre race briefing to drivers, I believe it would have worked well in the UK too. Sadly it was only taken up by some clubs despite being a recognised flag in the Blue Book and the MSA. The reasons for some clubs not adopting it were explained to me at the weekend and having heard that I have a better outlook on the issue.

That said, I believe we will suffer increasing delays to the program as a result of its abolition. Getting a Safety Car onto the circuit and to pick up the lead car, is often a task frought with danger. As a marshal I have felt comfortable working trackside covered by the B/Y flag (in the majority of circumstances), still it's going and we have to live with the consequenses.

A final thought: Wouldn't it have been nice if John Nicol's fine idea had a pronounced and positive effect on motorsport?

[JR Ewing]

Why had the field not closed up??

I've been in this situation behind some d*ckhead who din't realise you were supposed to close up and everyone behind lost no end of time...

[Stephen Green]

As I said above, if the Clerk of the Course covered this in his drivers briefing, then the situation shouldn't occur. That said you cannot account for every eventuality.

[Bob Pearson]

I would imagine that, with the demise of the B/Y the pace car would not be used as an alternative. The BARC ( at least at the events we compete at) never used the B/Y and relied on red flags if neccesary. They never found themselves in a situation where the meeting was overunning the schedule and so enforced race cutting unlike the 750MC of some years ago when, if you were in the second half of the programme a race reduction was almost a certainty.
Very often a b/y and safety car has been used to allow the marshals to tend to what was a mild risk and in the process triggered an accident of far more serious magnitude.
I have never felt easy with it and in the interests of driver safety will be relieved to see it gone.

[scorch]

The b/y didn't work well in this situation because the lead car was so much quicker than the rest, i can't remember but at least 20s+ quicker than the slowest car.

Therefore when the flag came out he already had a huge lead. The incident was cleared up in about a lap. therefore the whole grid was still spread out along the circuit, if they had waited for them all to catch up the race would have been over.

This was not the only problem with the b/y flag last weekend, there were cases where the flag worked perfectly but with the races being so short (15 minutes) it only really lasted 2 or 3 laps of racing.

I do believe that the b/y flag should stay maybe it's confusing because every race series does'nt use it..

[TwoSheds]

Originally posted by mark ch
...and the world doesn't revolve around Brands.

You learn something new everyday!!!

Next someone will tell me the earth isn't flat!

[Woolley]

Not at Brands it isn't - that's Silverstone you're thinking of, except the bit they use for the marshals' campsite!

Pleased to hear we've got another convert to the landline. As the number of marshals falls and the number of converts increases, it should soon be all of us.

I'm actually sad to see the B/Y go. At the moment I belive it's more often adding to the danger, but it shouldn't take much logical thought to make it the useful tool it was intended to be.

[the18racer]

I agree with JR....there is always some ******** who doesn't know the rules and potters around without catching up with the pack. I once overtook in this situation and was not penalised. I was called to the CoC and told him that I assumed that the other competitor had a problem and my explanation was accepted. On another occasion we were all forming up like good boys when some opportunist overtook half-a-dozen before realising what was going on. He braked, pulled over and waved everybody through and then dropped to the back of the pack. We all got the summons, having been reported by an observer for overtaking and we all got rollocked in race control. The rationale was that the overtaking driver would have been penalised for the overtaking manoeuvre anyway and therefore the error should not have been compounded. This is all well and good with hindsight except the bloke stood on his brakes and drove over to the side of the circuit. If we had all tried to comply we would have been at a standstill and the situation would have been just as chaotic and probably more dangerous. Anyway, there you go. I had a lot of time for JN- had the biggest ticking-off of my career at Knockhill when he was CoC- and this was a good idea. The problem, as with 99% of these things, lies with competitors not knowing the rules and not knowing how to react in such situations. Ah well, more race stoppages, more expense for the clubs...it's a shame.

[BugEyed]

As an inexperienced Marshal I'll add my 2 pence worth.

The B/Y might be a good idea if the Drivers both knew and obeyed the rules. Plainly they don't, and it only takes one to cause an incident.

In the case of the F5000 driver, he had just lost the nose from his car around the time that the B/Y came out, and he carried on at a speed considerably in excess of 50 mph. At the time that the flag came out, the F5000 was not far from lapping some of the slower competitors.The effect was, as was suggested earlier, that the slower cars at the rear of the field were unable or unwilling to catch up. Interestingly, the second place car (an F3) only just managed to catch up before the B/Y was withdrawn!

So, we will now get more Red Flags as events will have to be stopped whenever an incident occurs on or near the racing line as most clubs do not have Safety Cars and qualified drivers.

Duncan