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29 Jun 2003, 14:21 (Ref:646016)
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#1 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,760
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Damn it, Michael! Shut it, Ross! THank you, Rubens!
Another mistake from Michael, meaning he did a great job of failing to capitalise on Mclaren's failure. Not good enough.
Ross Brawn's comments with regards to the run up to Michael getting beached... Incredible, and completely wrong. A phenomenal case of sour grapes, to my mind. A big thank you to Rubens, who, despite having a very average race, was there to mop up the pieces when Michael got it all wrong. Finally, with regards the "push start". Apparently, the regulations have changed meaning that people in such a situation no longer get black flagged. I was unaware of this change, and it is a wrong one in my view. Sure, let him get push started to get out of the way, in the interests of safety, but he should still be black-flagged/excluded from the results in a perfect world. After all, his mistake meant he was beached and unable to continue. One should not get points in that situation. However, if the regulations allow it then they have to be taken advantage of. Overall, though, thanks to Mclaren's disasterous day, the situation is bearable. Ferrari and Bridgestone need to get their act together, for this season is most certainly going to be a tough one. |
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29 Jun 2003, 14:25 (Ref:646021)
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#2 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,258
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Indeed, if it's fair by the rules, then it's fair that Schumi can be pushed and continue to get points...I just hope there is clarification that marshalls should provide assistance to a driver in such situations, cos I don't think the marshalls/fan would've helped Monty if the roles were reversed today
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__________________
"Ukyo Katayama, undoubtedly the best Formula One driver that Grand Prix racing has ever produced." --Murray Walker
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29 Jun 2003, 14:27 (Ref:646025)
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#3 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 6,038
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lol...so a car can be totally in one piece, but it's beached or has its engine stalled and just needs a little push it should be excluded? I know that's been the rule for ages, but it's quite a stupid one.
The driver will lose a ton of places either way, and for the marshalls themselves, it's much much easier to give the car a bump start than to drag out the crain and deal with it that way - it might avoid a safety car (although, almost all the 'best' F1 races involve safety cars). Not to mention the extra TV time the sponsors get and having another car on the track. |
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__________________
"I used to hate writing, but now I enjoy it. I realized that the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!" - Calvin and Hobbes
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29 Jun 2003, 14:33 (Ref:646039)
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#4 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,760
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It isn't the rule anymore, Jay: this isthe point, now Michael is allowed to be pushed and finish.
I don't see why it is stupid he should not get points... He was unable to continue without assistance, therefore, in ym mind, he proved himself unable to finish the race justly. |
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__________________
"The world is my country, and science is my religion." - Christian Huygens: 17th century Dutch astronomer.
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29 Jun 2003, 14:55 (Ref:646072)
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#5 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 13,000
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Ross defiantely got that call wrong, Montoya made a great mvoe and deserved the place. Michael had plent yof room to get it turned in but still spun. Rubens seems to be in cruise and collect mode this season, happy with minor points rather than pushing for wins, and that's not good enough from a guy who seemingly beleives that he's almost as good as Michael.
I disagree with Jay here, the gravel traps are there for a reason. Without it Michael could've gone into the barrier. He made a mistake, spun off the track, adn beached the car. That should mean he can't get any points, because it's not fair on the guys who kept their midfield cars on the track all race long, did the best they could, and deserved points. Michael doesn't deserve to have cleared 1000 points with that one. |
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29 Jun 2003, 14:57 (Ref:646075)
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#6 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 6,038
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Again though, it's the way I outlined above in almost all of racing around the world, why should F1 be so different? I just think if your car's able to continue, it should be allowed to.
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__________________
"I used to hate writing, but now I enjoy it. I realized that the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!" - Calvin and Hobbes
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29 Jun 2003, 14:59 (Ref:646077)
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#7 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,577
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Thing is next year that corner will probably be tarmac, in which case he would have lost virtually nothing. Take comfort from small mercies, at least the gravel was there to beach him for a while and loose him some places. The trouble with the new tarmac run offs is that mistakes aren't punished in the way they used to be.
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__________________
Brought to you by Glagnar's Human Rinds: "A-bunch-a-munch-crunch-a-human"
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29 Jun 2003, 15:04 (Ref:646083)
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#8 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 493
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Michael kept the engine running. The rule specifically states that the driver will be black flagged if his engine has stalled.
Dont you think Ron would be whinging if he thought otherwise? He didnt even put up a fight. If the rules dont exclude it, then why are whinging??? Its not up to us fans to subjectively decide if a driver should be black flagged. The rules allow it, so live with it!! |
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29 Jun 2003, 15:05 (Ref:646087)
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#9 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 903
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But are the fans allowed to jump the fence and help out their man?!
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29 Jun 2003, 15:06 (Ref:646091)
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#10 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,294
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The rules are too grey concerning this issue, and the way I read them TGF should be able to keep his points. The car could have been classified as in a dangerous position simply because another car could have speared off the road and into him.
Plus, the engine was still running. However, I also agree with the point that if a driver screws it up to get beached into the gravel trap, then that car should be dragged out through the trap and forced to retire. |
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__________________
Sunderland Til I Die!
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29 Jun 2003, 15:41 (Ref:646151)
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#11 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,193
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[Comments removed. We don't appreciate stuff like that around here.]
Last edited by R; 29 Jun 2003 at 16:26. |
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__________________
Think, then act. Don't act, then think. -Jamie Hyneman
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29 Jun 2003, 16:17 (Ref:646190)
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#12 | ||
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Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,181
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[Post edited to remove quote from previous post.]
In any case.. That was a totally out of character bonehead mistake by Michael. One that may ultimately cost him the championship... Last edited by R; 29 Jun 2003 at 16:27. |
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29 Jun 2003, 16:35 (Ref:646205)
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#13 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,618
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hope not
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__________________
Apocalypse becomes creation / Gor-Gor shall erase the nation Before you leap into his gizzard / Fall and worship Tyrant lizard Ciao Marco
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29 Jun 2003, 17:24 (Ref:646250)
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#14 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,760
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z225: I am not saying Michael has gained his points unfairly, I am saying I think the changes to the regulations allowing him to do so now are not correct. Of course, if the rules allow it you must capitalise - if Michael hadn't done so, I would have been disappointed with him. I can live with Michael gaining points, believe me.... :-)
Well, Jay, then I have an issue with most of motorsport... |
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__________________
"The world is my country, and science is my religion." - Christian Huygens: 17th century Dutch astronomer.
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29 Jun 2003, 17:46 (Ref:646262)
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#15 | |
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Registered User
Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 92
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I don't see what the big deal is; was a racing incident and then a brlliant presence-of-mind move to get back in the race and extend his lead in the championship.
there's nothing 'bone-headed' about it... |
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29 Jun 2003, 18:09 (Ref:646275)
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#16 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,577
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"pressence of mind", you're applauding the bloke for shaking his arms about?! :confused:. What is it about his marshal beckoning that makes his style so great exactly? Was it the use of both hands or simply the fact that he appeared to be punching the air rather than using the more authodox waving technique.
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__________________
Brought to you by Glagnar's Human Rinds: "A-bunch-a-munch-crunch-a-human"
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29 Jun 2003, 18:15 (Ref:646282)
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#17 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 897
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Its a good job that that new rule was brought in at the beginning of the season cause MS would have been nowhere but some how i think this rule will cause alot of problems in races to come. I think Ross was bang out of order regarding his veiws on Montoya. Montoya had a faster car today and iam sure he was not prepared to sit behind Michael for the rest of the race. Once again we see that when ferrari are not in full controll of the race ie at the front, they seem to flop and i tell you what folks michelin have done an amazing job this season what a turn around and williams are looking very strong.
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29 Jun 2003, 18:42 (Ref:646316)
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#18 | |
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Registered User
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
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Ross Brawn has always struck me as being the most arrogant man in Formula One.
If you dish it out - surely you've got to take it occasionally. Even MS realised that. |
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29 Jun 2003, 18:53 (Ref:646335)
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#19 | |||
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Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,181
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Quote:
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29 Jun 2003, 18:54 (Ref:646342)
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#20 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 4,477
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Especially when the driver passing him is the one he hates most of all to lose to...
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__________________
"An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you've just found out" - Will Rogers
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29 Jun 2003, 19:38 (Ref:646385)
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#21 | |
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Registered User
Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 92
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you guys are hilarious...
he kept the car running, got back with help (he even thumbs-upped the workers) and damn near passed Alonso for 4th... an he extended his championship lead...all things considered, it worked out fine... I'm beginning to sense there is a lot of bashing for the sake of it here... |
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29 Jun 2003, 19:43 (Ref:646392)
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#22 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 4,477
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Quote:
 (Only joking.  )
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29 Jun 2003, 19:55 (Ref:646402)
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#23 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,577
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all hail Schumacher, he can spin and still be praised for it by the fans
 . If you think dropping points because your ego can't take you being beaten shows smart thinking and presence of mind then good luck to you!
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__________________
Brought to you by Glagnar's Human Rinds: "A-bunch-a-munch-crunch-a-human"
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29 Jun 2003, 20:52 (Ref:646450)
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#24 | ||
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Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,181
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Everyone knows I am a big tifoso, and compared to most others around here, have a great respect for Michael.... but I can't help thinking that Michael defended a bit more agressively than usual because it WAS Juan behind him...
Michael was struggling (tyres?) and had the much slower car: The fight that resulted in the spin was unnecessary. That being said, had it been Juan who spun, then I'd probably be here to tell you that Juan was too agressive Damon, though I agree with you on this one, lets remember that Montoya supporters in this forum were still praising Juan after HE spun out two weeks ago
Last edited by Inigo Montoya; 29 Jun 2003 at 20:55. |
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__________________
"And the most important thing is that we, the Vettels, the Bernies, whoever, should not destroy our own sport by making stupid comments about the ******* noise." - Niki Lauda
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29 Jun 2003, 21:13 (Ref:646482)
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#25 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,577
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For the fight back though, not the spin itself. That I called a mistake.
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Brought to you by Glagnar's Human Rinds: "A-bunch-a-munch-crunch-a-human"
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