Marshals good ideas

[johnw]

Sorry chaps - driver speaking.

On the interminable Oulton thread there was an excellent suggestion to re-label the external extinguisher and Master switches with "FIRE" and "ELECTRICS"

We will certainly mandate this in our club regs (KUMHO BMW) for next year, but it will have to be in addition to the MSA required circled E and Spark symbols.

It made me wonder what else we might do to assist you heroes and heroines (apart from being more polite and considerate, which is covered in an increasing number of other threads.)

As clubs we can add anything to the basic blue book regs which I have been advised by the MSA are minimum requirement only.

So let's have all your excellent ideas and see if we can incorporate them for next season.
John

[Mark Mitchell]

Joint Briefings!

Not at every meeting but why not get ALL competitors and ALL marshals together so that drivers can hear what we are being instructed on and likewise, marshals will hear what the Clerk or Championship Co-ordinators are expecting of them.
We could then (Hopefully) have a better understanding of what each other is trying to achieve!

Mark

[goforit500]

One marshal suggested to me that Electrics and extinguisher pulls aren't buried in a recessed panel or if the are make sure it is a big one as they are fiddly when wearing a pair of gauntlets.....

[Flagman]

The pulls need to be recessed - I have seen instances where a car has broken off protruding switches/pulls during impact with tyre walls etc

[Sheila M]

I would like to see scrutineering labels in logical places (and only the current one as per the blue book!) I have spoken to various scruts about this and my own view is that in saloons the label should be affixed to the rear passenger side window. In single seaters it's a bit more tricky. But the main point is that we can see the label quickly without having to stop the car for too long to hunt for it.

[johnw]

Keep them coming
I thought that the pulls/switches were supposed to be at the base of the windscreen.
We can put the scrute labels wherever you want, opposite the driver rear side window is easiest to get to.
We rarely get a briefing, (usually only if there has been a nonsense in a previous race and we need a slap)
We are having a drivers meeting at Thruxton in our allocated area of the paddock at 9.45 to reiterate the driving standards required in our championship. You are all welcome
John

[Sheila M]

John, as instructed:

Perhaps if more drivers spent days marshalling we could encourage them to obey flag signals promptly. I am a great advocate of drivers of all classes (from raw novice to Michael Schumacher) spending at least one day a year as a marshal for this reason.

Sheila

[scorch]

John, the major problem I tend to have with cars is towing eyes.

They really need to be in an obvious position, I know they are labeled but when you see an arrow on the bumper and find out that the towing eye in back by the axle does not help. You are very exposed when lying under a car reaching for the toeing eye 6 feet from the circuit with cars passing you just under yellows.

While I'm on the subject please please please make them substantial, a broken towing eye is very dangerous any of the marshalls around when it gives way.

[johnw]

Sheila - oops!
I meant is as a request. Sorry
John

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by johnw
Sheila - oops!
I meant is as a request. Sorry
John

I love it when racing drivers say they are sorry to me! No probs John, I knew exactly what you meant!

Sheila

[goforit500]

Flagman...My point was that if the pulls are recessed the recess needs to be big enough for a big butch marshal to be able to get his paw in there and pull the thing with his big burly welding gloves on !!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by goforit500
One marshal suggested to me that Electrics and extinguisher pulls aren't buried in a recessed panel or if the are make sure it is a big one as they are fiddly when wearing a pair of gauntlets.....

That'll be me, I think!

Positioning of electrics & emergency pulls does require some thought. The most convenient place in terms of cable runs, etc., is not always the best place for accessibility. Bear in mind that the person who needs to operate them in a hurry has probably never seen the vehicle before. They need to be obvious, clearly labelled & easily operable by a marshal wearing welding gauntlets. At the base of the windscreen on the driver's side is, I think, what the Blue Book recommends?

The 'worst case scenario' should be borne in mind - it's no fun when you've got a car upside down in the middle of the track with petrol pouring out & you can't even see the electrical cut-off switch.

It helps if the switches & the labels are on the same panel - I had an interesting few seconds with a rolled Fiesta which had the switches on the scuttle panel & the labels on the (severely modified!) bonnet!

In my short marshalling career I've only actually seen the on-board extiguishers accidentally set off once.....the driver did it!

[PaulPerkins]

Great thread, John! It's good to see another person from 'the other side'

Could you please discourage the use of double-pull electrics/extringuishers. When the adrenaline is flowing and you've just run 100 yards carrying what feels like a half-tonne extinguisher I would imagine that it's mighty easy to accidentally set off!

Oh, and ask the drivers to wave on their cooldown lap

[mark_l]

I've seen a mechanic set off a fire extinguisher on a BTCC car, he went for the wrong button, and looked very sheepish when the team manager found out.

I was however impressed by the complete lack of fire fighting capabilites of the AFFF system fitted, more leaked onto the pitlane than onto the drivers seat area.

[johnw]

Thanks Paul
It really is interesting to see how we might be able to help you help us. None of it difficult.
As Dave Brand mentioned the base of the windscreen is the MSA recommendation. Why on earth don't they make it mandatory? (Or make mandatory any position which would enable you guys to locate the switches/pulls immediately.)
Can you please explain to me what double pull means. If it means that there are two adjacent handles or switches, I think that is what we are required to have. I think that Dave Brand's point about the labels being on the same panel is spot on. Hadn't thought about the car stopping woithout its bits. Easy to implement and will do so.
I'll type up everything on here until tomorrow lunch time and bring it to Thruxton, so that I can speak to other co-ordinators about it. It will not be the whole of UK motorsport, but it will be a start.
I have an invitation to the MSA safety committee meeting so will be bringing this up there. I fear that the Blue book is probably printed by now, but they can issue amendments.
Sheila, I really am sorry!

John

[wookiee]

I think the idea of having drivers spend time as part of a marshalling team, though an old idea, is a good one. I think the learning works in two ways. Firstly the driver gets a little understanding of the way we work and secondly s/he gets a chance to watch the line of other racers at the circuit and learn a little more about the track.

I've always welcomed drivers volunteering to support training days and this could be another opportunity to forge a stonger link between competitors and marshals.

Perhaps the issue of extinguisher and electric pull switches could be addressed through regulations so that a standardised location and fitting could be agreed between all competitors? And lets have some signs in large print for the hard of hearing!

[wookiee]

PS - double pull is rather like a shotgun trigger. One pull switches off the elctrics and a continued, stronger pull fires the extinguisher. I haven't seen these for some time as most teams got fed up with false discharges (!) and prefer the cheaper option of two switches.

[MikeM]

The blue book did give positions for electrics and extinguishers for single seaters and saloons (except historics) but most marshals don't get to see this book. A few years ago at Oulton we used to show novices on a selection of cars so that they knew where to look - also the difference between manual and electric extinguisher operation etc. I thought this was quite useful for them?
Whilst I mainly race now I still marshal as much as I can and normally help on training days. I hope this is worthwhile for the people there and I enjoy it as it's normally good fun anyway

[johnw]

Thanks for the explanation Wookie
The double pull arrangement sounds ridiculous. I don't think that I've ever seen it, so maybe there are very few out there.

Paul, forgot to say that I shall get our guys to wave on Sunday. I think that we have always thought that you would think we were pratts, unless it was the winner. But let's not start that debate again.
John

[ascarracinguk]

we could get our teddies to do fire training and be traffic wardens in the pit lane....that way we wouldnt get blamed or slagged off!

[johnw]

Originally posted by ascarracinguk
we could get our teddies to do fire training and be traffic wardens in the pit lane....that way we wouldnt get blamed or slagged off!

I wondered how long this would stay positive.

Many thanks to the rest of you. I'll get your ideas implemented in our regs for next season.
It's been good.
John

[Richard Sneader]

John a good thread,
I believe all cars where possible should have their numbers on the rear as well as the usual places and on one corner of the windscreen. The reason as an obsrever some posts have a difficult view of the track ie distance, obstacles etc, in order to help the drivers more accuratlye we need the numbers and somtimes during a big indident the only thing we can see is the front or rear of a car. Also existing numbers more visible.
With reference to the pull switches I believe they should be in a very bright colour and an ouline of where they are in the same coulour as the swithches to make id them quicker.
ie a red car has a flurecent orange outline with flourecent orange pulls/ switches and the markings in the same. ( just my idea from 20yrs on the bank experience).
Thanks,
Rich S.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally posted by johnw
I wondered how long this would stay positive.

Many thanks to the rest of you. I'll get your ideas implemented in our regs for next season.
It's been good.
John

my post wasnt meant to be negative.....i was just trying to make a very ad joke....seriously though....recessed extinguisher buttons may have advantages..on the other hand they could be covered up in a crash....my main worry is the double pull thingys like the listers have....seperate buttons clearly marked....maybe different colours...for instance red for fire and yellow for electrics...and in at least 1 set on the front...inside and back of the car....oh yeh and away from the engine....alot of single seaters have them next to the most likely part that would set on fire.......the engine

just my thoughts

[goforit500]

FYI....I did have the pulls on my car clearly labelled, not hat it had the slightest effect on the result.....:-(

http://www.brsccnw.com/brsccteam.htm

Thanks for posting that link Dave...In all innocence I followed the link and lo, t'was my pride & joy combusting - Really made my morning, that did !!

[ascarracinguk]

oh and john.....youve probably caught me on a very bad day...im usually in a very good mood and jokie about things....ive just been reading the comments by kartingdad etc on the other thread....and to say the least im slightlly ****ed off....we all give our time volunterily pretty much every weekend for 6 months of the year n every weather.....and then people complain if someone makes a mistake or tells someone to get of the pitwall

this is not having a go at you john.....just in a bad mood...i agree this is a good thread tho