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6 Jan 2004, 13:08 (Ref:829397) | #1 | ||
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Flagmarshals - How to wind up your Observer in 2004
Given that the Yellow and Black flag has been abolished for 2004 - if you want to cause chaos and confusion do the following.
At your first meeting of the season, after checking you flags on post, inform your observer that you do not have a Yellow & Black flag. He is bound to call you all sorts of interesting names and point out that you should know that the flag has been abolished! When he has calmed down a bit, insist that he informs Race Control that you do not have the Black & Yellow. When they calm down a bit - point out that the 2004 Blue Book lists the flags that each post should have - the first one on the list being a Yellow & Black quartered flag... |
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Instruction to all drivers - Black bit - yours, green bit - ours |
6 Jan 2004, 13:22 (Ref:829412) | #2 | ||
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Ooooops. A slight oversight there somewhere!
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6 Jan 2004, 13:23 (Ref:829414) | #3 | ||
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End of the yellow and black
With the yellow and black flag at last being retired, what will replace it? Would it be a safety car, full course yellows, race stoppage or is it a matter of wait and see what happens on the day?
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6 Jan 2004, 13:53 (Ref:829432) | #4 | |||
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Falcemob
There have been a number of threads about this over the autumn. Perhaps the fullest is at http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...hreadid=35512. In direct response to your question: probably all of these. Full course yellows are (for non-oval racing - that is a different game) not what is needed. At the risk of offending drivers: (the tone of the quote is a bit harsh when extracted from its original context) Quote:
Neither of these would be necessary if the yellow flag was obeyed (which would, I fully accept, require marshals not to over-use the flag ) Regards Jim Last edited by JimW; 6 Jan 2004 at 13:57. |
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6 Jan 2004, 13:54 (Ref:829434) | #5 | |
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LOL - wouldn't worry about it - it's still in our green book and we haven't used the wretched thing in about 3 years!
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If you feel that the circuit is not safe for racing, please go into the pits and retire. |
6 Jan 2004, 13:58 (Ref:829443) | #6 | ||
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I have merged these two threads as they are linked in an obscure way
Stephen. |
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6 Jan 2004, 14:00 (Ref:829446) | #7 | ||
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Do seriously think the circuits are going to check the flags to remove the B/Y flag.
Their just going to left to rot in the flag bag or in Donny's case the corner of the blue box or like all the other flags. When was the last time a circuit supplied yellow flag looked yellow, or white flag white and not grey. |
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6 Jan 2004, 14:02 (Ref:829452) | #8 | ||
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I was going to put it in this thread but didn't want to hijack it...ho hum
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6 Jan 2004, 14:04 (Ref:829456) | #9 | ||
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Am I alone (I doubt it) in wanting to get back to the old days where we just get out there and deal with the situation?
A conversation with a driver a couple of years ago was a sobering one, and I confess he had a point: "There's no point in slowing down, there's never any marshals out there anyway, just an occasional tractor." I for one find that difficult to argue against. It's possibly why I tend to prefer places like Mallory more these days, and behold, the discipline seems better at those types of circuits. Is this whole thing a chicken and egg type situation? |
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6 Jan 2004, 14:11 (Ref:829461) | #10 | ||
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JimW,
I did try looking for anything on this but missed that thread. I suppose it has all been said before so we will have to wait and see what happens this year. IMHO I don't think much will change and chaos will no doubt still prevail as normal. |
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6 Jan 2004, 14:30 (Ref:829481) | #11 | |||
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Quote:
If I, as an observer, am to encourage my team to be more willing to make that considered judgement, then I need to be reasonably sure that the coroner would not regard me as reckless of other's safety. That is a bit brutal way of putting things but I have had to do the hospital visiting after two course marshals on my post were hit by a car as they were going to attend to one which had fallen off. As it happened I would have been quite happy to have been with them so my conscience was clear. But I was thinking that from the safety of a marshal's post. Regards Jim |
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6 Jan 2004, 14:35 (Ref:829485) | #12 | |
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It's partly chicken and egg and partly numbers.
There's really no point when you only have two ground marshals trying to push out a car that's totally wedged in gravel. You can give it a try, but the simple fact of the matter is that a lot of times, you won't be able to shift it. 4 marshals and you have a much better shot. So why put yourself out in the line of fire when you don't think you can actually do any good. But 2 marshals - or even one - can be the difference between life and death in the event of a fire or other types of serious incident. It's just that the days when we could deploy 5-8 marshals into a gravel trap to heave a car back onto the circuit are more or less gone. So trackside visits tend to be based on the level of urgency and the numbers available to deal with the problem. |
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If you feel that the circuit is not safe for racing, please go into the pits and retire. |
6 Jan 2004, 14:41 (Ref:829492) | #13 | ||
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Sadly, all very true. I wouldn't suggest ignoring the safety aspects - some situation are just too unsafe however you look at it - and two people ain't going to push a car from the middle of one of Donington's beaches!
I feel, though, that we've gone too far the other way and I've watched people being unwilling to commit when a situation is manageable. Of course, too few newer marshals have had the opportunity to learn these judgement calls. |
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6 Jan 2004, 14:53 (Ref:829500) | #14 | ||
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and too many series where bad driving ignoring flags is treated as the norm and almost unpunishable.. some series I wouldn't go trackside at all even for a major incident without a race stop or rescue unit vehicles for protection. thinking of SEAT's esp
"A conversation with a driver a couple of years ago was a sobering one, and I confess he had a point: "There's no point in slowing down, there's never any marshals out there anyway, just an occasional tractor." " If a car hit the tractor who would walk away them that. should make driver think twice. |
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6 Jan 2004, 14:55 (Ref:829502) | #15 | ||
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Quote:
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If you feel that the circuit is not safe for racing, please go into the pits and retire. |
6 Jan 2004, 15:17 (Ref:829529) | #16 | |||
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OK at the suggestion of JimW, here is my perspective on this subject. I am sure I have said it before but here goes.
In the 3 races I have been in where the Y/B has been deployed, 2 of them have resulted in at least 3 drivers being disqualified or seriously told off and penalised for not obeying them properly. On all three occasions there have been two or more trains formed which is exactly what you don't want, and I always seem to be in the back one Here is a section of a race report I put up on my web site for my last Brands race. It is abit tongue in cheek but you will get my point. Quote:
The thing is that these flags were mostly ignored/misunderstood by the drivers (in most cases experienced drivers as us novices have had the rules beaten into us by the COC's) I the case I stated it cost me at least 30 seconds on the Dtype in front of me giving me no chance of catching up. This spoils your race, wastes our money and doesn't give any entertainment to the paying public. I don't realy know what the answer is as I have only been racing since this flag was introduced so it will be interesting to see what happens this year. Maybe a local yellow will be better if it is safe to work under it, but it is still down to the drivers to play the game. |
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6 Jan 2004, 22:18 (Ref:829923) | #17 | |||
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Hmmmmm, I blame Race Control
Quote:
Just another perspective to add to the discussion |
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7 Jan 2004, 00:14 (Ref:830050) | #18 | ||
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In case I've given the wrong impression, I'm NOT suggesting suddenly everyone starts diving out there, your own and your colleagues safety must be paramount.
I did a day without tractors at Doni 18 months or so ago, and the I/Os briefing was 'we will deal with it unless there's a very good reason why we shouldn't' and armed with that expectation, we did, and safely too. We've got into the habit of 'we'll leave it unless there's a pressing reason to go out' and I think potentially that's more dangerous, because when you do, you haven't learnt the skills. It must be done under experienced supervision, and the marshals' safety must be at the forefront, but it shouldn't prevent us doing what we're there to do. If I want to watch tractors, I'll stand by a farm! |
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7 Jan 2004, 03:17 (Ref:830143) | #19 | ||
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It would be good if, as an errant driver, we could be pushed out of the gravel/mud/wall and continue with our race.
I understand that this could only happen with enough marshals and disciplined driving under yellows. The former is in our hands as we should be striving to make the racing entertaining enough to entice more folks out on the banks. The latter is entirely in our control, but if it's not working, discipline must be imposed by the observers and organising clubs. Putting marshals in danger by not slowing sufficiently can be reported as dangerous driving. The penalty for this should be suspension of race licence. I understand that there will always be a debate about how much slowing is appropriate, but if the penalty is severe enough, drivers will soon get the message and slow down to acceptable levels. Undoubtedly some poor innocent will be suspended unfairly, but for the greater good, we will have to accept it. John |
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7 Jan 2004, 09:34 (Ref:830298) | #20 | ||
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Quote:
After watching a driver last year nearly kill my entire crew through reckless driving on a damp track when they were working trackside (it was his THIRD time through under clearly waved yellows and he spun) you can imagine I was thrilled to hear that he'd been given "a good talking to". He certainly was. I went and spoke to him myself. Something I wound up getting into trouble for incidentally. |
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If you feel that the circuit is not safe for racing, please go into the pits and retire. |
7 Jan 2004, 09:38 (Ref:830302) | #21 | |||
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Quote:
Jim |
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7 Jan 2004, 10:12 (Ref:830315) | #22 | |
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Yeah think that's part of why I got into trouble. However, since no matter what I do (or don't do) I'm blamed for something, I've become very philosophical about things. After all, if you're going to get abuse no matter what you do, you may as well do what you want!
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If you feel that the circuit is not safe for racing, please go into the pits and retire. |
7 Jan 2004, 12:24 (Ref:830382) | #23 | |||
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Quote:
Last edited by Tim Falce; 7 Jan 2004 at 12:25. |
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7 Jan 2004, 12:34 (Ref:830392) | #24 | |
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I,m with JohnW, no time is too soon to adopt this policy. Maybe I'd exchange exclusion from the race for licence suspension but in principle I agree. Fines and talking too's do nothing starting from the back of the grid or race exclusion has a nasty habit of sticking in your mind.
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7 Jan 2004, 12:40 (Ref:830402) | #25 | ||
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Maybe it would help if the C of the C made it a mandatory point in his driver briefing? If at each meeting the rules about yellow flags, pace cars etc etc were reitterated, then I think you would have every right to 'come down hard' on those who transgress. It is like everything in life, it has to be taught
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