Goodbye to Ayrton`s 65th Pole record in 2004

[bastinscully]

With Michael compleating his 57th Pole position today, it looks almost set to beat Aryton`s great record of 65 poles I really hoped this record would stand, but looks unlikely now. at least Senna took 10 years to get that record, it`s taken Michael 15!

[jetsetter]

Whether you like it or not records are meant to be broken, the sport would be pretty boring if noone ever challenged or broke these records.

[bulldogspirit]

I wouldn't write it off this season yet, TGF still needs 9 poles in 16 races to break it this year.....it's not quite a forgone conclusion. Next year tho....defo

[Knowlesy]

It's sad that Ayrtons record is going to be broken. That was the one main legacy of the man, his sheer dominance and mastery of qualifying.
Had he not died, he would have got well past the hundred mark for pole positions.....

[enemy-ace]

Senna's pole percentage won't be beaten, and to me that is more telling of his dominance than the actual number. With the current qualifying format as well, I think the winning of a pole is diluted. Michael is a good qualifier but he is no Senna and nothing can change that.

[Knowlesy]

You're right enemy-ace! Damn I feel better now!

[z2252314]

Originally posted by enemy-ace
Senna's pole percentage won't be beaten, and to me that is more telling of his dominance than the actual number.

Um, Senna doesnt hold the pole percentage record. Therefore, by your logic, Senna was the third best qualifier of all time. The figures are shown below

Juan Fangio 29 51 56.863%
Jim Clark 33 72 45.833%
Ayrton Senna 65 161 40.373%
M Schumacher 57 195 29.231%
Stirling Moss 16 66 24.242%
Juan Montoya 11 51 21.569%
Damon Hill 20 115 17.391%
Jackie Stewart 17 99 17.172%
Nigel Mansell 32 187 17.112%
Jochen Rindt 10 60 16.667%

[Mr V]

With the new qualifying system as it is, Pole position doesn't mean much anymore imo, Senna scored 65 poles on an even playing field, Michael, now, has not....not that thats Michaels fault!

To give an example, of JPM's 11 poles, his most meaningless one was at Hockenheim 2003, even though he got pole, fastest lap and win. His other 10 over 2001/2 mean alot more.

[z2252314]

What do you mean MrV???? Getting pole position under the current system is umpteem times harder than the old system. Previously, you got at least 4 runs at pole so even if you messed a couple of them you could still clinch it. The current system allows no margin for error. Likewise, the 2003 system penalised Michael in qualies by forcing him to be the track sweeper in qualy1 because he was leading the championship. In addition, all cars must now qualify in race trim, so the big teams cant utilise their power by using special quali-spec engines and components.

Is the current qualifying system more exciting than the old one? Hell No!!

Is it easier to get pole under the current system??
Hell No!!

[Mr V]

Originally posted by z2252314
What do you mean MrV???? Getting pole position under the current system is umpteem times harder than the old system.

What i mean is that a faster car over one lap might lose out to a slower car because the faster car might be running heavier for the race than the slower car (in terms of out right speed over a single lap)

When the Williams was dominant in 1992/3 and Senna secured pole, or when the Ferrari was dominant in 2002 and Montoya secured pole, that meant more, than nowadays where fuel stratergy or track tempreture plays its part.

Who honestly believes that Verstappen would have got provisional pole at France last year under the old system? No one, and the only reason he did was because he was the only driver out on the track when it was at it's dry-est point.

Jeez, you guys seem to take things so personally.

[z2252314]

What i mean is that a faster car over one lap might lose out to a slower car because the faster car might be running heavier for the race than the slower car (in terms of out right speed over a single lap)

Yeh V, but your argument was that Michaels pole stats couldnt be compared with Senna's implying that the current system was easier for Michael to get poles. Michael has never run light and sacrificed his race in order to get pole. I think it would be quite fair to say that all of Michael's poles under the current system have been just as hard, and most likely harder, to achieve than those under the old system. If yesterdays qualifying was run under the old system, the order would most likely have been

1. Ferrari
2. Ferrari
3. Williams
4. Williams
5. Renault
6. Renault
7. Mclaren
8. Mclaren

ets. What you tend to forget V is that after 4 runs, it was quite difficult to leapfrog the grid as positions were very much reliant on the car. The current system places more of the focus on the driver performance than the old system ever could. Your scenario of teams running light to get pole seems a bit exaggerated. All the top teams tend to converge to a similar strategy.

The current system rewards those drivers that have the confidence to push their 'race' car closest to the limit and I dont have a problem with that. Under the old system, do you think Webber could have qualified that Jag in 2nd (and no, i dont believe he's running on fumes!).

To sum up, Michael's poles under the current system were just as hard, and more likely harder than those achieved under the old system. If the 50 odd poles under the old system are good enough to be counted, than those under the new system are definately worthy of being included in the tally!!!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by z2252314
Um, Senna doesnt hold the pole percentage record. Therefore, by your logic, Senna was the third best qualifier of all time. The figures are shown below

Juan Fangio 29 51 56.863%
Jim Clark 33 72 45.833%
Ayrton Senna 65 161 40.373%
M Schumacher 57 195 29.231%
Stirling Moss 16 66 24.242%
Juan Montoya 11 51 21.569%
Damon Hill 20 115 17.391%
Jackie Stewart 17 99 17.172%
Nigel Mansell 32 187 17.112%
Jochen Rindt 10 60 16.667%

Does anyone else find it significant that the only two current drivers in the top ten %age wise are MS and JPM? The next thing is to see the percentage wins compared to poles.

[Gt_R]

The new current qualifying is screwed up because it tend to make drivers qualifying results look either better or worse than the driver really is. It's a two-way sword.

I agree with both of you, that Michael's poles while indeed are more than worthy to be included because he got pole positions usually while running heavier cars (being at a disadvantage), there are times when as MrV said, some slower driver got up the grid or even pole due to weather/light fuel.

1 thing i won't feel painful is whether Senna's record would be broken. Sure, it's nice to hold a record no doubt, but having it broken would NEVER make be think lesser of Senna than before.. That man is a freaking quick qualifier! GV doesn't hold much record if any, but we still regard him as one of the best don't we?

And unlike many posters, thankfully MS dont worry about the records as we do.

[santori]

Didn't Alberto Ascari score 14 poles from 34 races?

[Spudgun]

Originally posted by Gt_R

I agree with both of you, that Michael's poles while indeed are more than worthy to be included because he got pole positions usually while running heavier cars (being at a disadvantage), there are times when as MrV said, some slower driver got up the grid or even pole due to weather/light fuel.

Fair point, but apart from the glory hunters who run low fuel, everyone is in the same boat. And those glory hunters are mid-field cars who rarely get pole anyway.

To be honest, I'd rather go back to the 12 lap qualifying system.

Qualifying on a Saturday, the cars got to do what they were designed to do. One lap with four attempts, low fuel. The race was a compromise betwwen weight and pace. Always was.

I miss the slow build-up and then the frantic close to qualifying. The teams got the chance to maximise conditions, but now they're stuck with what time slot they get.

Yeah, it may mix up the grid sometimes, but to be honest qualifying is qualifying. If you're faster you get a high grid slot. Geez, in day gone by you got a point for pole and fastest lap.

Mixing up the grid, great. The thing is it just involves someone being stuck behind someone else and being a battle on pit stops.

[z2252314]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Does anyone else find it significant that the only two current drivers in the top ten %age wise are MS and JPM? The next thing is to see the percentage wins compared to poles.

No probs Pete, the figures are shown below.
Please note that the figures only include those drivers that have had at least 5 wins and 5 poles in their careers. Many drivers have had a win without a pole, which makes their Wins/Poles ratio infinite (cant divide by 0).

E Fittipaldi 14 6 233.33%
C Reutemann 12 6 200.00%
Alan Jones 12 6 200.00%
Jackie Stewart 27 17 158.82%
Alain Prost 51 33 154.55%
M Schumacher 71 56 126.79%
Damon Hill 22 20 110.00%
D Coulthard 13 12 108.33%
Graham Hill 14 13 107.69%
Jack Brabham 14 13 107.69%
Niki Lauda 25 24 104.17%
Stirling Moss 16 16 100.00%
Nigel Mansell 31 32 96.88%
Nelson Piquet 23 24 95.83%
Alberto Ascari 13 14 92.86%
Jacques Laffite 6 7 85.71%
J Villeneuve 11 13 84.62%
Gerhard Berger 10 12 83.33%
Juan Fangio 24 29 82.76%
R Barrichello 7 9 77.78%
Mika Hakkinen 20 26 76.92%
Jim Clark 25 33 75.76%
John Surtees 6 8 75.00%
R Patrese 6 8 75.00%
James Hunt 10 14 71.43%
Ronnie Peterson 10 14 71.43%
Mario Andretti 12 18 66.67%
Ayrton Senna 41 65 63.08%
Jacky Ickx 8 13 61.54%
Jochen Rindt 6 10 60.00%

[Peter Mallett]

Well done. You see the likes of Jonesy up there and he was a bit of a hero of mine.

The numbers game is interesting.

The guy with the shortest career of the lot is Damon Hill. His success rate is quite impressive on that basis.

[RWC]

I'm abit surprised by all this .I thought senna had lost the record ages ago.Did he raelly get that many?? Amazing

[esorniloc]

Another record to change hands soon is the number of wins for engines. Ferrari are not that far behind Ford now.

[x_dt]

Its a record Ayrton deserves to keep; he was the qualifying specialist.

[BootsOntheSide]

The guys with the greatest raw speed are near the bottom fo the list. In general, the guys with the best racecraft and strategy are near the top.

Pole statistics as a whole probably mean less now than they used to, but it is difficult for a single driver to take a huge number of poles, if he regularly runs at a sensible level of fuel. Michael tended to often run heavier than Rubens last season, whcih gives a potential advantage to other teams.

[300kph]

For me, math is wonderful because it let us compare results like these and keep as records, but how close are we to the real thing? these times are taken on different situations. Senna has done 65 and on my judgement basing on ability to drive and to work, he is still the specialist.
What if Senna is alive today with thesame age as MS?
The clossest way to do it is to race 10 years and die then we will see how much one have done....

[ralf fan]

It will be terrible if this record too falls.. it really is the last record that signifies Ayrton Senna's greatness..

[Peter Mallett]

But as has been said. It's different eras. A significant point. Therefore we should take comfort in the stats purely because we know they are just numbers.

[ATF]

The rate MS is going, he will probably get to 100 race wins - that's just over half of the races left between now and the end of 2006!!