FIA Papers

[Peter Horsman]

Can anyone tell me what the latest is, please? I hear that the Heritage Certificate may be no more. What would we be left with? Something of even less worth that the old FIA Papers?

[zefarelly]

I wasnt aware anything had changed . . . . .I have just filled in all my forms to get my papers, theyre all emailable and digital now as well

[LAK]

Hi Peter. Take a look at the Appendix K regs on the FIA web site. From my reading essentially current FIA papers are okay until the end of 2005 (I think). Then the papers will revert to the Heritage Certificate. I am assuming that if you already have FIA papers the MSA will just transfer the car over to the Certificate however that it is a big assumption to make.

Are you going to make the Heritage race at Snetterton? We will be there with our Griffith so if so, no doubt we will catch up with each other.

Louise K.

[Peter Horsman]

Not sure about that, Louise. They may issue an HTP (Historic Technical Passport) which is pretty meaningless. All cars conforming to the original specification of the model it purports to be get those, even if it a blatent and admitted copy/reproduction!! The issue for 'real' car owners is the Heritage Certificate. See the FIA website and search on Heritage Certificate. These renewable documents are supposed to be given, for a (large) fee, to cars which can prove (I think to the FIA) continuous history and provenance as a complete car from date of manufacture.

[zefarelly]

Peter what is the problem ? I'm assuming you have a genuine period car, with history, which has FiA papers in their current form, so its eligible to race ?

The trouble, as I've read thus far, is that too many people are building replicas and making out they're original to sell and make money, or, as with Bugattis (as an example) you slice it in two, and make 2 from 1. obviously not cricket!

For us humble racers, I'd like FiA papers so I can race competitively in a class without hot rods, there are no genuine originals of my car and I probably couldnt afford one if there was, but does that mean I'm wrong for building an honest replica ? if it wasnt for them there wouldnt be enough cars on the grids to make a race.

I'm inclined to agree with the proposals to have a 2 tier system for 'period spec' and 'genuine historic racers' but where is the cut off date ? and what age the car ? also theres the issue of what you pay for the recognition, I have a car that cost considerably less than a bugatti so it needs to be sensibly set (which I gather the FiA don't always do !)

[Peter Horsman]

I think that the issue is that the old FIA papers (theoretically) were only given to cars accepted as original. The HTP does no such thing, since it will not distinguish between genuine cars and replicas to original spec. The HC requires evidence of continuous history which a lot of genuine cars will not have. So, for the genuine car with (say) a couple of years ownership details missing in the 1950s or whatever may not get an HC. Even if it's accepted by all as being absolutely pukka. So, it's 'lumped' together paper-wise with the replica built yesterday.

That's the problem!!

Of course, much depends upon the interpretation of the rules but the FIA website appears to be quite catagoric.

As for non-FIA papered cars entering races, that's entirely up to the organisers. You distinguish between your replica and hot rods (which is very fair), but I between original and modern replicas. It doesn't mean that you are 'wrong' at all. But people (organisers, I suppose) should (it seems to me) to be able readily to distinguish between them if they wish.

I dont think that the HTP will cost a shedload of money. Also, I have had great fun as a competitor racing with replicas but I don't think that that's the point with historic racing. It's either historic or not.

[zefarelly]

what about a Lotus Cortina, with a continuos racing history of say ten years . . . .and another ten year history in rallying, before which it was a road car ?

what about a 100E Anglia with 30 years racing history but not complying with FiA historic preperation.

If you think a cars not going to get FiA papaer because it didnt race for ayear or two I think your wrong, as for replicas, theres more of them than originals, as I said, without them there wouldnt be any historic racing, AND a vast majority of 'originals' have been rebuilt, reshelled, restored, etc so many times theyre virtually new anyway so the non historic point doesnt really wash either.

If your concerned with the value of your vehicle then if it is genuine enough people/experts will verify it I'm sure, you never know , you might have a fake !

[ianselva]

If you're only getting FIA papers in order to race - who cares which kind they issue ? If you are about increasing the perceived value of your car you will only want the Heritage papers. I have just got HTP for my Formula Junior which all appears to be old original panels with some old mods to the chassis, although there was no traceable history due to previous owners having died ,gone to prison or fled to South America.

[zefarelly]

I dont care myself as I know what I've got and where it came from, and that it was a genuine road car, if I sell it I'll do so at a fair price, if you don't know your car and its history and your insistent on posh papers for posh sake then one would assume your doing it for monetary reasons, which is why the FiA are getting strict about it.

if you have a genuine period racing car and you want it to race it what differrence does it make.

if you want it in a museum what difference does it make

if you want to prifiteer at somebody elses expense then good luck to the FiA in making sure you dont !

[Peter Horsman]

The HC will be denied if not raced for a period. It is continuous history, not continuous racing history which has to be proven. Which is what I posted.

I don't propose to respond to the other points raised which seem to stem from a deeply held personal perspective rather than from the thread.

[simon drabble]

I think that if the relevant club, Lotus Club etc... can confirm that its teh car its purported to be you shouldnt have any concerns as it would be quite natural for a historic race car to have a racing gap between the time that it was competitive in period and when it became a historic race car.
There will never be a "perfect" system and they will be always open to abuse but in principle if the system works then it should be embraced and the race organisers can take the decision asto whether they want replica's or original cars.
In respect to values it will actually clarify things as the gold papered cars will have a premium to normal FIA papered cars. I am generally in favour of the move.

The losers will be the HSCC type saloon hotrod cars but then they have a limited life span outside the UK anyway as 2005 will herald FIA only cars racing in Europe.

[Peter Horsman]

Hi, Simon.

I agree that this is how it should work and hopefully the FIA will allow it to work this way. Of course, it would open the system to abuse (like the old FIA papers) but there we go.

Incidentally, I think that it will be the touring side of the FIA which will administer the HC, not the ASNs. HCs will be appropriate to all 'original' cars, not just racers.

[simon drabble]

Inevitably it will be a grey area open to abuse as no system is foolproof but I do think it is in the right spirit.
Will the gold papers be issued to historic saloons which have continual history albeit not period race history?

[Peter Horsman]

I am pretty sure so. Go to the FIA website to form your own view!! I do not think that race history is important at all. Just history.

[zefarelly]

Peter, I was only trying to stipulate that in my opinion too many people have used FiA papers to fake cars and in some instances at the expense of the originals. I think I'm in favour of the changes, but as you and Simon have said, its a near impossible line to draw between each end of the scale and totlly impossible to police without horrendous expense.

at the end of the day If I can go and race at places such as the Oulton Park Gold cup like this last weekend then I'm happy, and from retired couples to young kids where coming up and admiring my and hundreds of other cars, FiA papers or not.

interestingly we where commended by people for the originality of our preperation ( although not the out and out performance !)

[Peter Horsman]

Well, I hope that you were more successful than me at Oulton. I effectively ran out of petrol 2/3 way tho' race. Fuel pick up pipe had moved since last time I used my rear petrol tank which I fitted after qualifying!!! It was a good meeting, and I enjoyed watching the other races too.

[Peter Horsman]

Well, I hope that you were more successful than me at Oulton. I effectively ran out of petrol 2/3 way tho' race. Fuel pick up pipe had moved since last time I used my rear petrol tank which I fitted after qualifying!!! It was a good meeting, and I enjoyed watching the other races too.

[zefarelly]

well we finished, although in hindsight I wish I had a better fuel gauge than a stick, I always seem to finish with 10 litres to spare by erring on the side of caution !

with reference to continuous history, how does one proove this ? I keep all my race details on file, but it doesnt stipulate what car I'm driving in any detail

[simon drabble]

I guess that is what is meant by spirit of the law rather than letter!
Peter sorry to hear you were suffering a bit and I wasn't there - it could have been the first opportunity I have had to finish ahead of you!! I hope the race was without incidence - a little off thread I know but are you doing the Spa round?

[Peter Horsman]

Surely am!! GD (with Rick Lloyd co-driving) and BRDC in Lotus, and Barry's race in Morgan with Andrew co-driving. Looking forward..... See you there!

O Pk without major incident, Ted did v well to hold off Harps all race after Philip's diff went at start. No damage anywhere in field, tho' maybe more bruised egos (mine def included).

[Slippy Diff]

I know of certain people who had two sets of FIA papers for the same car. Cars were not how they should be anyway, once the FIA papers were received the cars were altered and the owners were cheating, blatantly I might add. Trouble is the organisers of the race series and the scrutineer for the race series pretty much refused to do anything about it in case they got upset and left. ****ed me off no end.

[simon drabble]

I have same agenda except I am doing Julius' race rather than Sideways one and I am Graham Horder's co driver in GD. You should do well in the GD - last year I was second in class and you are a lot quicker than me... anyway all a bit off thread!

[zefarelly]

Thats fairly common I think Slipy, prep a car, get the papers then really modify it to be competitive, its even the same for club papers, let alone FiA papers.

I've built my car very standard, as it says on the homologation papers and I'm no where near competitive, so what do I do, enjoy life at the back of the grid with the Hilman Imps or cheat ?