a Factory PANOZ-Courage in alms 2005?

[19dodge]

Thats what the latest Autosport claims. Talks are going on between Yves Courage and Don Panoz. Panoz wants to bring back his Elan V8 engine, but doesnt want to use his Panoz LM01. The plan is for Panoz to buy 1 or 2 of Courages old C60's and put Elan V8's in them, and run them in alms next year. Other possibility is for Panoz to run the brand new Courage LMP1 Closed-Top Car(new car for 2005) thats in the works. Maybe this would be a bigger linkup than people think..

whatever the case is, Panoz really wants to have 1 or 2 of his own LMP1 cars on the grid starting at Sebring.

[Waco Racer]

If I were Don Panoz I would buy 1 or 2 of the Dallara chassis sitting around and put the Elan V-8 in it. It is a shame that there are only 2 of these cars running this year.

[SALEEN S7R]

Would be great to have Panoz back in the LMP class, I just hope this deal comes off. Who knows, the new Courage LMP 1 could well be a R8 beater, then we might see the R9.

[jhansen]

Well I had heard rumours of a Panoz return. This isn't quite what I was expecting or heard, but good news none the less.

[Tim Northcutt]

Here's hoping it DOES happen....

and that the Courage LMP1s with Elan power will be at Sebring next March...

This is good news indeed...

[jhansen]

Would using the C60 be wise? Pescarolo have taken that design so much farther than Courage have. I wonder if the C60 would be as competitive as the Pescarolo?

I like the Dallara option better. A team with some funding could take that car far. It still has some development potential and the Elan would be a good fit in it. And, there are certainly some chassis available out there.

Panoz would also be able to get Michelin rubber, which would be good as well.

[Cynic]

I have to agree that the Dallara would be a far better choice than the Courage C60 from a development standpoint, although presumably Panoz have the R&D facilities to do some work themselves. What worrieds me is the choice of engine. Is this the same lummp that powered the LMP-07? If so it's a waste of time IMO. The LMP-07 was a pig of a chassis, but it was still obvious that the engine didn't have the low-down torque of the block that was in the 01' cars. If Panoz is serious about sports car racing he should either concentrate on the closed top car, or start off with a blank sheet of paper and the latest ACO regs.

[jhansen]

What Mr. Panoz is serious about is adding a car or two the ALMS LMP1 grid. I was expecting something a bit more in-house than a Courage chassis.

And the Elan is probably the units from the Panoz LMP1 cars.

['70 Mach 1]

Just a quick thought: I wouldn't think that Panoz would want to use the Dallara chassis, since its from his rival in the IRL...

[jhansen]

LOL! Forgot all about that. Good point!

[Waco Racer]

DOH!

[tblincoe]

no this is not the engine that was in the LMP07, that engine was actually made by zytec i believe and was the predecessor to the now very capable engine that is in all the zytec cars...

the engine that is in question is the elan 6.0L V8 that was in the LMP01 as well as the ex-JMR R&S MkIIIC's (autocon, intersport)and the ACEMCO Saleen.

although the courage c60's aren't the fastest cars out there... they can be reliable with the big V8 and could run consistently which could land more than a few podiums for the team, a win? -probably not with 2 champion audis and 2 dyson lolas next year, one of those cars is bound to have a near trouble free run.

as for the best choice, it would obviously be the yet to be unveiled new courage lmp1 as the courage c60 would be severely handicapped by the rules in races outside of the alms and only be raced for a year before being obsolete whereas a new lmp1 would have a very long shelf life through at least 2009 but there must be doubt whether or not a pair of cars could be delivered by sebring in march.

so panoz has the tough choice on his hands: he wants to boost the lmp1 grid ASAP, but do to the transition period, an older car would only be raced for a year, but a new car might not be ready for next season's start. maybe courage will give panoz a really big discount as panoz could only race the cars a year, and courage has no use for the cars now that they are going with a new lmp1

this just goes to reaffirm that don panoz is the best thing to happen to american sportscars in recent memory. the man cares enough about the series and american sportscars, he's going to reach into his pocket again and put his own money on the line. best of luck to ya donny

[The Badger]

This sounds like a great idea . Courage breaking into America and an Elan engine in the back . It certainly sounds like a reliable plan to me . Now we need a couple of serious R&S's on the grid !!!

[Bob Riebe]

no this is not the engine that was in the LMP07, that engine was actually made by zytec i believe and was the predecessor to the now very capable engine that is in all the zytec cars...

the engine that is in question is the elan 6.0L V8 that was in the LMP01 as well as the ex-JMR R&S MkIIIC's (autocon, intersport)and the ACEMCO Saleen.

Why don't you simply call the Elan built Ford a Ford and the Zytec a Zytec.

Elan builds, not manufactures, engines and until they make a unique crankcase that is all they are.
If and when they do, then it is even more important, to separate a Elan designed engine from what is simply their version of someone else's engine.
Even Gurney had the common sense to call his engines Fords , not Gurney's, nor do the aftermarket manufacturers in the US pretend their blocks are really anything but Fords, Chevies, etc.

No wonder it is hard for new fans to understand sports car racing when the hard-core fans call apples, orannges.

Bob

[GT1]

I would agree. Its based on the old 6.0 liter Ford. It may be quite different than what Ford had, but its not like Elan designed it themselves.

[BSchneiderFan]

Well, it's more like calling apples Granny Smiths than oranges, but in general I do tend to refer to Fords rather than Elans or Yateses.

[tblincoe]

you've gotta be kidding me!!! the differences between the elan, yates, and lazzaro brothers/lincoln versions of the ford 6.0 liter definitely warrant a name change... this is absolutely absurd.

why do you think the outputs and reliability of each engine is so different and certain engines are more sought after???

and by the way no one is referring to the zytec as the same engine as the elan. the elan is a 6.0L v8 and the zytec is a 3.4L V8... not much to compare here...

[GT1]

Call it an Elan Ford. Call it a Yates Ford. Or Lazzano.

I didn't like it when JMR showed up with a "Yates" V8 at Sebring and Le Mans and I don't like the Elan.

I rememeber when Alburlen was driving for Panoz, he was interivewed after a stint in Sebring saying "we had so much torque from the Ford...Elan engine".

There were tons of emails at Daytona 24 when JMR ran with the Elan regarding "What is an Elan?". More than once they had to explain it was basically the 6.0 liter V8 Ford.

I remember I got into an argument once with someone on another board. I said the Panoz used the Ford engine. They said "No no its the 6.0 liter Elan engine". I told them it was based on the Ford and they said "Oh, its based on the Ford".

[jhansen]

Interesting point Bob.

However, it is quite common in short track USAC and WOO racing to identify the motor by the one that built it. All of Ed Pink's engines are referred to as "Pink" while a Gaerte is referred to as just that, a "Gaerte." Fans in that particular circle of racing have no trouble following what make is what.

Elan has spent a lot of money to develop this particular motor and make it suitable for endurance sportscar racing. Why shouldn't they get the credit? Now, if Ford were fronting the cash, then rightly they should be given proper credit.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by tblincoe
you've gotta be kidding me!!! the differences between the elan, yates, and lazzaro brothers/lincoln versions of the ford 6.0 liter definitely warrant a name change... this is absolutely absurd.

why do you think the outputs and reliability of each engine is so different and certain engines are more sought after???

and by the way no one is referring to the zytec as the same engine as the elan. the elan is a 6.0L v8 and the zytec is a 3.4L V8... not much to compare here...

All these companies "build" engines, they DO NOT "make" engines.
If they designed their own unique cylinder head, then can call it a X, Y, or Z Ford, as Gurney did.
It is a FORD engine!

People wonder why there are not more manufacturers in ALMS well, ignoring or excluding the names of the companies, without whom NO racing would exist, is probably one reason.

Bob

[jhansen]

Ford is NOT in the ALMS. Period. So why should Elan give them free advertising??? The answer is that they shouldn't.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by jhansen
Interesting point Bob.

However, it is quite common in short track USAC and WOO racing to identify the motor by the one that built it. All of Ed Pink's engines are referred to as "Pink" while a Gaerte is referred to as just that, a "Gaerte." Fans in that particular circle of racing have no trouble following what make is what.

Elan has spent a lot of money to develop this particular motor and make it suitable for endurance sportscar racing. Why shouldn't they get the credit? Now, if Ford were fronting the cash, then rightly they should be given proper credit.

You would make a good politician Mr.Hansen but you know as well as I do, that 90% fof sprint car and short track engines are Chebbies, or shivroletts, as some call them.

When a racer is using something other than a Chevrolet, is made well known by tv and track announcers.

As I said to the other gent, unless they have a unique cylinder head, it still just a Ford built by elan.
Why they are insecure about letting the world know that Ford supplied the basic material (design)which they try to make work as well as possible, does not make sense.

Bob

[jhansen]

How dare you insult me by likening me to a politician! Them's fightin words!

[tblincoe]

you're missing the point, of course it makes a difference. the outputs, power-band characteristics, fuel economy, general reliabilty, etc. etc. warrant a name change. the differences between versions of the ford are huge when it comes to on-track performance. if you dont believe me ask people like jim matthews who ran both the yates and elan engines and he will tell you that the differences are big. you can see it in the times and results of the car. just because the cylinder head is the same doesnt mean diddly squat...

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by jhansen
Ford is NOT in the ALMS. Period. So why should Elan give them free advertising??? The answer is that they shouldn't.

Are you sure your not running Kerry's campaign?

IF the people in the IMSA and ALMS have that attitude, I can, double-dog dare you, guarantee, that Ford never will be either.

Bob