last minute entries - dangerously slow?

sonic · 15 Nov 2004, 15:07 (Ref:1154065)

So, despite Bernie's claims that F1 is all about quality not quantity....

...we have Minardi starting the season with their hacked about 2004 car. Jordan are desperately trying to wedge an old Toyota motor into the back of their tub, and Son-of-Jaguar team Red bull are probably best placed - have only just got the go ahead to pick up their tools again.

These teams struggled badly in 2004 - what hope have any of them got for 2005?

just think, even Toyota may be able to beat them easily!

Personally I think the speed differential between them and the front runners will be scary - bring back the 107% rule!

**BertMk2** · 15 Nov 2004, 15:09 (Ref:1154068)

If I understood the press releases correctly Jordan will have next years Toyota engine in the back of their car. Red Bull and Minardi will presumably be running the same model Cosworth Motor?

Snrub · 15 Nov 2004, 15:16 (Ref:1154076)

I'm not sure that they'll be slower than that Pacific team run by Keith Wiggans was in it's time.

I don't know that we have any idea what varient of Cosworth engine Red Bull and Minardi will be driving. I can't see why it wouldn't be an evolution of what was already created.

Kicking-back · 15 Nov 2004, 15:28 (Ref:1154083)

Red Bull/Jaguar are not just "picking up their tools again".

They've been working as normal all through the current situation.

Jordan will have the same engines at Toyota.

I don't see there being anything to worry about.

Three teams who had question marks over their futures are going ahead - good news, we should be happy we will still have ten two-car teams - not knocking them.

DougK · 15 Nov 2004, 15:32 (Ref:1154086)

I disagreed with 107% rule!
what difference is 10s on a lap - its quite normal in club racing for such a difference (especially between classes) so these "professional" drivers should not really have a problem.
I'd like to see more cars regardless of the speed and if they get in the way occassionly so what - it sorts the men from the boys when overtaking!

**BertMk2** · 15 Nov 2004, 15:37 (Ref:1154088)

Quote:

Originally posted by Kicking-back
Three teams who had question marks over their futures are going ahead - good news, we should be happy we will still have ten two-car teams - not knocking them.

Totally agree, it's great news that Red Bull, Jordan and Minardi will all be on the grid next year.

jhansen · 15 Nov 2004, 15:38 (Ref:1154090)

Jaguar's 2005 car was already well in progress when the decision from Ford came down if I recall. So I doubt Red Bull will just pick up in 2005 with 2004's car.

ss_collins · 15 Nov 2004, 15:59 (Ref:1154114)

little noticed rule in the blue book - there is a simlar rule to 107%

BootsOntheSide · 15 Nov 2004, 16:06 (Ref:1154130)

I think if a driver is consistantly off the 107% pace, and fails to set a time within 107% in qualifying, he can be excluded from racing. And it's not inconcievable that it will happen to Mianrdi, although with the latest Cosworth evolution it seems less likely.

Jordan should be closer to the pace than in 2004, as even if the chassis is again poor the engine will often amsk this. And Red Bull have no reason not to be well clear of Jordan. As KB and DougK have said, it's great to have a complete field, and you never know when a team will get points.

sonic · 15 Nov 2004, 16:20 (Ref:1154151)

I'm not knocking them K-B - I just simply cannot see how after this level of uncertaintly and short notice they can hope to be competitive.

Personally I think they will form a straggling class B between the three of them - (and im more than happy for Wrex to re-kindle this thread in November 2005 and laugh at my predictions)!

DougK · 15 Nov 2004, 16:23 (Ref:1154154)

Well in order to spice things up why not have an A and B class. One for manufacturers and one for customer teams, similar a drivers championship for manufacturers and customers.
BTCC has it, WRC has it..... surely that would motivate the smaller teams more and lead to some more battles. It would also highlight the smaller teams and maybe encourage bigger sponsers for them.

Kicking-back · 15 Nov 2004, 16:27 (Ref:1154159)

No - one of the benefits of F1 is that everyone's racing for the same honours.

As I say though, these teams have been working on their 2005 plans all along anyway.

Super Tourer · 15 Nov 2004, 16:34 (Ref:1154170)

Jaguar have been developing next years car whilst all the negotiations have been running on, even the bean counters at Ford realised they had to have something to sell to attract any buyers. So, they should be in no worse a position than they were this year.

On the engine front Cosworth's budget is nothing like the major players, so it's doubtful we will see the same level of development from them and obviously the new owners will need to assess what they have bought, this is bound to be a knock on effect of some sort.

Jordan will have more power, but need a much better chassis to benefit from it. Mark Smith is on board, so they will be able to produce a better car, whether that be for the start of the season or maybe mid season.

Possibly Jordan have actually been working on accomodating a Toyota engine for some time, EJ has had a big smile on his face since Suzuka.

DougK · 15 Nov 2004, 16:55 (Ref:1154200)

I guess the Jaguar (Red Bull Racing now) and Cosworth will be keen to impress (staff trying to impress the new owners)so I would only envisage a step forward for them.

Like ST said I am sure Jordan have known (or expected) for sometime that Toyota was coming their way so don't expect them to be any worse than this year.

Minardi will not change much I doubt and maybe the new rules will cause some upsets in some teams. Running a detuned engine or having a slower car in the first race meeting may save them in the second!

BootsOntheSide · 15 Nov 2004, 17:05 (Ref:1154213)

Quote:

Originally posted by DougK
Well in order to spice things up why not have an A and B class. One for manufacturers and one for customer teams, similar a drivers championship for manufacturers and customers.
BTCC has it, WRC has it..... surely that would motivate the smaller teams more and lead to some more battles. It would also highlight the smaller teams and maybe encourage bigger sponsers for them.

I'd be in favour of this as a way to keep the field large. It's not unknown in F1's past (1987 Jim Clark Cup for non-turbo cars), and the last thing F1 can afford to do is to take a snobbish attitude in terms of private teams - they could really be needed one day. Chances are that there'll be 5 in 2006, and it'd be nice if they had a specific trophy to push for.

**Adam43** · 15 Nov 2004, 18:51 (Ref:1154291)

Will they be 107% of the pace? IIRC this year that situation was very unlikely in normal running conditions. During the last GP Bruni's fastest race lap was 4.3% slower than Montoya's. I think the situation will have to change quite dramatically for the gap to widen. I think the gap has narrowed this year, despite Jordan and Minardi being in a (realtively) worse state compared with '03.

In addition there are some reasons why they could be closer, as mentioned above.

Redlake27 · 16 Nov 2004, 17:09 (Ref:1155147)

They should keep the 107% rule. Minardi only had a problem when they had a Yoong in the car. When the signed Davidson both cars qualified. Keep the rule!

Snrub · 16 Nov 2004, 17:22 (Ref:1155157)

If there is a second championship, how do you distinguish which teams should be in it? I read that Red Bull plans to spend ~$200M which is not far off what Jaguar spent. Just because they don't have an auto manufacturer's name branded on their cars, are they a private team? What if they upped it to $300M?

With 1 lap qualifying there's no fair way to do the 107% rule. You can't enforce it during the race.

senna12 · 16 Nov 2004, 19:16 (Ref:1155272)

Well, I'm sure since Kalkhoven needed Cosworth to provide engines for his other series, he has insured that the engine development will have continued during the negotiations.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns13853.html

With Toyota power, Jordan should see some improvement over and above what a new chassis might provide, but I don't expect much from Minardi next season. They just don't have any real development budget.

GP Racer · 16 Nov 2004, 20:37 (Ref:1155351)

I don't think Jordan will have much more cash on hand to fix that awful chassis than Minardi. That chassis had all it could handle with the Cosworth last season, so stuffing a Toyota in that thing may do more harm than good.

I definetly don't want to see two championships in F1, but as long as the difference between the have's, and the have not's, keeps growing, an argument can be made for one.

luke · 16 Nov 2004, 20:43 (Ref:1155361)

There used to 4 championships in the '80s.
The Jim Clark cup and the Colin Chapman Cup along with the constructors and drivers championships.

f1manoz · 16 Nov 2004, 21:01 (Ref:1155378)

Jordan should certainly be helped by having a Toyota powerplant in the back of their car. But if the chassis isn't up to the job, then it'll be situation normal in 2005 - just ahead of Minardi.

Will be interesting to see how the new Red Bull team fares in 2005. Considering it's nothing but a re-name of Jaguar, I doubt much will change there. Although a good, quick driver could certainly help them progress.

Minardi will struggle... like usual...

senna12 · 16 Nov 2004, 22:13 (Ref:1155458)

Does anyone know how much input is provided by Eddie's venture capital partner? Do they provide any budget, or do they try to help Eddie find money, or do they just sit back and watch? You don't hear much about them (I had to look up their name), you would think that for 40%, they'd be a little more involved in trying to increase the value of their investment.

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