Waved Yellow Flags

[Dan Friel]

Just an observation from today at Combe (has this subject been covered before??), why do will feel obliged to wave a yellow flag in response to every incident?? The Blue Book is very clear that a waved yellow is required for "Great Danger" and where competitors need to be prepared to take evasive action.

Surely the over use of the waved yellow is one of the most dangerous actions that we consistently do??

[Robin_D]

Well it really does depend on what has happened. Today at Mallory we could of done withabout 50 waved yellows as the pack of mini's didn't slow as the BRSCC rescue unit almost found out!

Think this would slot in with the "Can drivers see flags?" thread!

[Zider Drinker]

Normally as the drivers getting out the car... If the car is off to the side, but marshalls and/or driver is out of car, then I'd personally normally wave the yellow and expect a yellow waved as their is someone trackside (hence Great Danger).

Altho, its always better to start off waving as the incident happens/ends, as its easy to be downgraded to a stationary yellow once the dust has settled. There's also some flag marshals who will change the intensity of the wave to convey amount of danger, fast movements if important, or slower if off to one side out the way with marshals attending.

[beefy]

I agree about waving the yellows whenever there is anyone trackside - I've worked without any flag cover and was not a happy bunny. When I started flagging, I was told that once you waved the yellow flag you had nothing to upgrade to. Therefore, I try not to wave unless I feel it necessary. Speaking personally, I do not have the temprement to use different intensities of waving - once the adrenaline hits, the flags goes a little manic!

[garybirch]

Agreed, if marshals are trackside, it must be waved yellows.

I was also at combe today and the problems I and the other flaggies and our Obs got annooyed about were 1) not watching the next post so you can respond quickly with your flags (20 seconds before noticing!) and 2) being too quick and withdrawing the green too early. We must keep it out until the last car to pass the first yellow has passed us too, otherwise they've seen yellows but no greens!

[Grandslammer]

Originally Posted by garybirch

...and 2) being too quick and withdrawing the green too early.

Didn't happen on the post I was on

[M Greenslade]

Dan Hi, having spent the day flagging with you I would be keen to know what/where these incidents took place, although I have no doubt they did actually happen. I totally agree with you regarding the over use of the yellow flag, how can you wave a waved flag, and I am not sure exactly where it the
Blue Book are there instruction on how to in increase the intensity!!!

In truth it come down to a combination of experience, training an common sense, unfortunately I feel flag marshals some times don't go to training days as perhaps as often as they should, is there a feeling of 'I know it all' by the way I am not pointing these comments at anyone in particular, it is just that it seems sometimes to be the same faces year in, year out at training days and perhaps those who have many years behind them should try turning up.

Balders

[Dan Friel]

Balders,

It was just a general observation. It's just to me (being a course marshal) that the value of a waved yellow has been significantly watered down.

Blue Book section J16 is where you need to go. If a car isn't on the track (especially on a straight), then it's hard to see why a waved yellow would be required. A stationary yellow requires a driver to "ensure full control of the vehicle" and no overtaking - surely that's enough and it leaves room to upgrade to a waved??

[EvilPumpkin]

I do think there's a certain level of adrenaline involved as well. There are times when something happens - particularly if it's rather spectacular with clouds of dust and lots of tyre screeching - where the automatic reaction is to wave the flag.

Then when the dust settles, it turns out to be nothing more than a vee on the infield that's already escaping!

It's certainly extremely important not to overuse the yellows - but never forget you can also downgrade - so if you're waving a yellow to start and then it becomes clear that it's not a waved yellow scenario, you just downgrade to steady.

The main problem is that you can't really learn the nuances of flagging at a flag training session. Sure you can learn what the flags mean and what the book says - but the rest, you can only get "in the field". And that relies on having another experienced flagger on post to train and supervise - and there, I suspect, lies the problem.

[Dean Watson]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

I do think there's a certain level of adrenaline involved as well. There are times when something happens - particularly if it's rather spectacular with clouds of dust and lots of tyre screeching - where the automatic reaction is to wave the flag.

Then when the dust settles, it turns out to be nothing more than a vee on the infield that's already escaping!

yes I totaly agree with you EP however on Friday at Snetterton I had the opposite scenario. Harmless spin with clouds of dust giving approx zero visability flag man put out steady yellow just to err on the side of saftey, only to find a stockhatch on its roof with marshals running to assist.

It is a science only gained through experience and no ammount of training will prepare a flaggie for every incident. I have been flagging for more years than I care to remember and I know what each flag means but I still sometimes have to ask the other flag marshal ( I have been on post this year and there was 2 flag marshals) or observer/post-chief for a second oppinion.

[Grandslammer]

I think that whatever flag is used for whatever situation,will usually,imo,be criticised to some extent by other Flag/ Marshals ( myself included) on the adjacent posts
Where was the blue,no need for a waved yellow,etc,etc
That's the nature of the beast

[Steve Tarrant]

[quote=Dan Friel]The Blue Book is very clear that a waved yellow is required for "Great Danger" and where competitors need to be prepared to take evasive action. [quote]

Has anyone stopped to think what "great danger" actually means in a racing sense? Basically it means ANYTHING that wasn't there at the start of the event/session/race and therefore a new obstacle or obstruction that the oncoming driver(s) needs to be aware of, and have the chance to take avoiding action as deemed neccassary.

Therefore my thoughts are that a waved yellow at the post preceding the incident is the right thing to show, knowing you can always downgrade it subsequently.

After all, drivers are putting their necks on the line when fully committed and should have the right to expect us to tell them when things change.

Don't forget there are FIA championships where there is no such thing as a stationary yellow, it's waved or nothing!

Cheers all


Steve

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Steve Tarrant

Don't forget there are FIA championships where there is no such thing as a stationary yellow, it's waved or nothing!

I may be wrong - it's quite a while since I had to work with FIA regs - but in that scenario, isn't it the case that a) all flags are waved and b) they use single waved yellow and double waved yellow to differentiate grades of incident?

I seem to remember that from the last time I was working with them, but it's been a good 2-3 years so they may have changed?

From a driver perspective, it shouldn't really make a lot of difference - both versions of the flag require you to slow down and not overtake - it's simply a method of indicating how much evasive action they might need to take.

In an ideal world anyway.........

[Dan Friel]

Steve,

I can understand what you’re saying, but the Blue Book (we play to MSA rules) states that the stationary yellow signals “danger” and therefore that covers anything new on the circuit. The waved yellow signals to a driver that evasive action may need to be taken – hence “great danger”.. From what I’ve seen, I’m not sure that many marshals really understand the difference.

I agree about waving until you’re sure it can be downgraded, but this mustn’t take a whole lap on every occasion. Perhaps 5 to 10 seconds? Just what would you do if something even bigger happened at the same part of the track???

[Zider Drinker]

Ok, lets but another (personal view), into the pot... When we've showed a yellow flag [stationary or waved]. How many times have we believed the cars not to do the following;

Originally Posted by MSA Blue Book; Reg J 16

(e) Yellow Flag - Stationary; Danger, slow down sufficiently to ensure that full control of the vehicle can be retained. No overtaking.

(f) Yellow Flag - Waved; Great danger. Slow down considerably. Be prepared to suddenly change from the projected racing line, or take other evasive action including stopping if necessary. No overtaking. (This signal may be supplemented by flashing yellow light(s), as an added warning)

Now, it states under (e) that the driver needs to slow down, but, how many of us have ever noticed this? Even under (f), it states the driver to slow down considerably. I've been trackside, with a FF go behind us under waved yellows as they had no control over their car.

Changing tack, do alot of flaggies put waved out just to get the drivers attention? And forcing them to have to slow and take notice of an incident?

[candfracing]

Coming from a drivers perspective, especially after yesterday at Mallory, I think the static Yellow should be abandoned for a waved flag.

See, the problem is, when you are in such close racing such as Mini racing, it's sometimes difficult to see everything if you are in such a tight bunch.

Waved flags (in my opinion) are more noticable than a static.

[CombeMarshal]

Can I just point out that Combe now has 2 yellows on every post, so technically there is something to upgrade to for waved yellow!

I'd have to agree, Waved yellows at the incident, static before, green after, better to go on the side of caution, Flags are not easy to see, as mentioned before, when your looking for then, let alone when racing.

Better to be safe than sorry, If there is a car just off circuit (as inevitably they are at combe) and the driver is still in the car it's better to wave it until he is out and clear, what happens if he suddenly opens the door?

And, as yesterday, the flag marshal never made it to the circuit, so several course marshals, myself included, did shifts on flag, and mistakes are made, when you explaining to a relatively new marshal how to flag it's better to keep it simple, static if the next post has there's out, waved if it's in you sector, green if it's the sector before.

[cornish]

I was also at Combe yesterday and one incident did make me think.
Should double waved yellows be used when several marshals are trackside dealing with an incident especially when that incident is over the brow of a hill and under heavy braking ?

[Dave Brand]

Something which others may not see as important, but:

Yellow flags in effect stop racing in the track sector they cover. If you wave a yellow, you force a stationary yellow at the previous post so you're doubling the length of track over which no racing is possible.

Just a thought!

[devon kev]

I agree with Dave Brand , we had the same situation at Pembrey at the w/end . Post 1 showing a waved Yellow thus making Post 8 show stationary and me on Post 2 to show Green , just for a competitor running along the edge of the track on grass

[Clive]

Golden rule is wait for the dust to settle, but if anyone is trackside or the 'crippled' car is on the black stuff, then a waved yellow is required. If no one is trackside and the offending car (or truck or kart whatever) is not on the black stuff, then a stationary will suffice, followed by the hazard board if not removed (car that is, not the board - sorry ot have to spell that out but you all know there are some clever people out there who will pick you up on the slightest spelling or grammar error!)
Most drivers I have spoken to accept a waved yellow means marshals are on track. Shame they dont all take notice of it!

[Dan Friel]

I agree, if marshals are on the track or a car is stationary on the track, or if marshals are in a position of "great danger" (common sense required on this), then a waved yellow is required. If a car is on the grass and marshals are dealing with it at a relatively safe location then it's a stationary everytime.

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by Clive

Golden rule is wait for the dust to settle, but if anyone is trackside or the 'crippled' car is on the black stuff, then a waved yellow is required. If no one is trackside and the offending car (or truck or kart whatever) is not on the black stuff, then a stationary will suffice, followed by the hazard board if not removed (car that is, not the board - sorry ot have to spell that out but you all know there are some clever people out there who will pick you up on the slightest spelling or grammar error!)
Most drivers I have spoken to accept a waved yellow means marshals are on track. Shame they dont all take notice of it!

Waiting for the dust to settle is aimed at course/incident marshals, you can't wait for the dust to settle before putting a flag out!!!


Dave, I really can't see how that is a bad thing, give the drivers a chance to settle down and be more prepared for the incident, they are even more less likely to know what they are about to come up against, if they see a single stationary yellow then they could easily assume the incident is in the next sector as there is no warning before the stationary yellow, I have often thought this, the yellow has 2 totally different meaning for being stationary witch is rather stupid! (I.e. Incident in this sector or incident in next sector!)
I also agree, double yellows should be used when Marshals are on track.

[James Elder]

The main thing with flagging is that we are telling the driver something about what is ahead, but it's harder because we aren't talking to them - all we have is a bit of coloured fabric. So in the case of the yellow flag we need to be able to convey how serious the situation is.

I usually go for a stationery if it's a simple incident - pull off or something like that, but a car stuck in gravel, on the edge of the track or such like needs to be waved. One incident I have just remembered was from the Oulton Park Gold Cup last year when a Jaguar XK (in the leading part of the pack) spun on the first lap into Shell and got collected - I was on Island Out and practically waved my shoulder off!

In reference to the earlier post where a driver saw a waved yellow - that goes back to an earlier post I put in another thread where it was pointed out that drivers see movement better than total stationary. That doesn't necessarily mean we should go all waved yellow though - simply slowly moving a flag up and down for example (so that it moves in the drivers viewpoint) can suffice.

[Dan Friel]

I think it's all about intepreting the Blue Book correctly. It's all about reducing the speed of the vehicle. A stationary means "reduce", a waved means "reduce considerably". A stationary before a waved allows this to happen in a safe manner. There's no need to considerably reduce your speed when a car is parked 50 yards from the track.

The biggest danger to all marshals is for the value of a waved yellow to be reduced due to its overuse (competitors have begun to ignore it).