Tilke

[ChrisPage]

I'm very probablty covering old ground here, but want to know what the real feeling is about the Tilke-Tracks.

I assumed I despised them and all about them.

But I must admit I genuinly look forward to Sepang -I think that is a great circuit. And also a lot of Istanbul I like alot.

Bahrain and China don't do it for me. And the emancipation of Hockenhiem should surly be seen as a crime against humanity (I imagine that was Tilke?!).

What say folk?!

[ECW Dan Selby]

Hockenheim is abysmal in comparison to how it used to be. I'd love to see the criteria Tilke has to work with, and just how much of his input is actually his input. Sepang is a decent track with some welcomed undulations (sp?) and some good sweeps, and it was a bit of a grower on me. It still doesn't particularly excite me, I must say. It seems to lack that true motor racing atmosphere. China looks good in theory (I like the idea of the Chinese symbol (which one, i'm not sure) being used for T1), but again it seems to lack that atmosphere and the track really doesn't have much feel to it.

Turkey seems like a bit of a mad one. It seems to work as an F1 track and is nice and fast. It's a bit of a shame it ends with Mickey Mouse, but saying that it's seemed to work quite well with Formula 1 cars over the past few years for some last ditch attempts at overtaking. Also I guess the driver is more influential on that corner now as i'm guessing wheelspin could be an issue getting out of that tight chicane? And that straight leading out of that final corner can be the difference between a good place or two, as we've seen..

Tilke seems to have done a fine job on the plans for Donny (ie. he hasn't really touched it, too much).

Like I said, I find it a little difficult to criticise him too much as I really have no idea as to how much he has to work with. If anyone could shed any light that'd be great.

Selby

[Ingsy]

The point about a lack of atmosphere is an interesting one. How much of that is down to the circuit design, and how much is down to the lack of motor racing history or a knowledgeable and passionate crowd?

[ECW Dan Selby]

Knowledgeable/passionate crowds I think. Not seeing the place packed out is always a downer lol But yeah I'm guessing subconciously some of it is racing history, in fairness.

Selby

[Maccafan]

IMO Turkey is one of the highlights of the calender. I can't wait to see it this year. I think we'll see a few sideways cars through turn 8. It really deserves a name that corner.

Shanghai is great too. He's made both of these really good "race" tracks. Nice and wide, fast sweepers and slow corners. We'll see a lot more overtaking this year for sure.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Statistically there are more overtaking manouveres at Tilke tracks. Do I care? No. They're all soulless. Get rid of them, and never mention them again. Istanbul is his saving grace, but even a broken watch...

[Dutton]

Turkey is a great track, but for the unnecessary fiddly end. Sepang isn't bad: I used to actively particularly like it, but I've become less fond in more recent years (I still think it is perfectly respectable).

Hockenheim is a just a travesty, but he just did what he was told to do. There wasn't much else he could do.

I get the impression I am in quite the minority here, but I like the Valencia track (it seems to be a bit of a misnomer to call it a street track). I don't suppose he had a vast array options for the Singapore layout, but I think it works out well (expect for that horrible 1.5-chicane weird thing - the pit issues have been addressed, I think). It is magnificent that Donnington has not been brutalised.

I really dislike the Shanghai track. It is just really crappy, for me.

The rest of them? Just unremarkable blandness.

He has limitations, so we have to give him some room to breathe in this respect. It sure would be nice for a different designer to get a shot sometime, though.

[dtype38]

Anyone know if the new Yas Island F1 Circuit is one of Tilke's. It certainly has some interesting features... like run off areas under the grandstands so that the fans can get nearer to the action, and a pit lane exit under the circuit. Should be intersting!

[Purist]

I rather like Istanbul. The one thing that particularly bugs me isn't actually the end of the lap, but that hard left at Turn 9 followed by that niggly kink onto the backstretch. Sepang is alright, but I can't think of anythink that makes it really stand out for me.

To be fair, Malaysia and China do have some motor racing history. There's the Guia Circuit in Macau. I don't know how old the Johor Bahru circuit is, but the Shah Alam circuit in Malaysia opened in 1968, and hosted the 800km finale of the 1985 World Sportscar Championship.

Shanghai just doesn't all fit together quite right. There are some nice rhythmic or flowing sections, but a number of the corners just don't seem to belong there. Bahrain is simply an abomination, along with the reworks of Fuji and Hockenheim.

Aside from Istanbul, it doesn't help that none of the original Tilke designs have a great deal of elevation change. And with those huge run-offs, any scenery is put at a significant distance.

Valencia and Singapore are temporary courses, so I don't really judge them by the same standards. I will say the that both have too many niggly kinks, corners, or complexes that just muddle things up. The chicane at Singapore definitely ought to go.

The Cancun proposal was rather pathetic, and the old Moscow design (2003 or so) wasn't too great either. On the other hand, the Cape Town, South Africa layout looked rather interesting.

In deference to the location, I suppose you could call Turn 8 at Istanbul Hagia Sophia.

Overall, I must agree that I'm really not very keen on Hermann Tilke as a circuit designer.

[Marbot]

Maybe he'd get somewhere if he teamed up with a golf coarse designer?

[ECW Dan Selby]

What? No No one wants a flat golf course!!

Selby

[Marbot]

Having said that,the infield part of Donington will be quite steep and will have a 'sand trap',maybe it just needs a few trees and a 'water hazard' putting in there.

[ECW Dan Selby]

haha Just had a bizaare image of an F1 car spinning into a water hazard

Selby

*EDIT* Could this be the answer to our chicane cutting problem??

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Having said that,the infield part of Donington will be quite steep and will have a 'sand trap',maybe it just needs a few trees and a 'water hazard' putting in there.

Do you think anyone will try and drive out of the sand trap... or would they be better off using a wedge?

[johntt]

I'm going to wait till we've seen races on Tilke's tracks with this year's cars until coming to a judgement.

[ECW Dan Selby]

/\ Fair point. I guess GP2 cars would be a fairly good judge up until now?

How have the Tilkeodromes handled the GP2 anyone? I don't follow it, unfortunately.

Selby

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Do you think anyone will try and drive out of the sand trap... or would they be better off using a wedge?

Technically they should use a 'sand iron'.

Or a big crane.

[Purist]

I really have my doubt about the new cars changing things all that much.

Assuming slick tires give them more mechanical grip, speed, especially in slower corners, will be increased. Unless the cars are making noticeably less downforce, this will translate into shorter braking zones than we see even now. If the cars are making markedly less downforce, top-end speeds, at least on straights preceded by a faster corners, may be lower, which will NOT help in providing a longer braking zone in which to attempt outbraking maneuvers. Also, the narrow rear wing will create a significantly smaller wake. This will probably help a trailing car stay closer through the turns, but will substantially weaken the slipstreaming potential of the new cars.

Therefore, I really don't see the new cars changing the reputation of the Tilkedromes in any meaningful way.

BTW, the new Moscow Raceway (currently under construction) looks about as tight and technical as the Hungaroring, so I can't say I'm looking forward all that much to the forthcoming Russian GP in 2010 or 2011.

[Yannick]

Bureau Tilke are obviously the most competent people out there at the time in track architecture, but their works do suffer from some design flaws which make their circuits not liked too much by drivers. Ruining the flow for the sake of additional overtaking opportunities is the main criticism here.

I've tried to come up with a ranking of Tilke's designs, from best to worst:

1) A1-Ring / the new Zeltweg
This one's an edit of a very good design that wasn't up to safety standards anymore. They have stayed as true as they could to the original. It remained a highspeed circuit, even though the inclusion of the now mandatory hairpin was inevitable. Too bad that this one is now in pieces.

2) Kurtkoy / Istambul Park
Crowned by the multi-apex multi-cambered Turn 8, this is my choice for the best of the designs that Tilke has come up with from scratch. The major positive of this one are its elevation changes. And the flaws are the unnecessarily mickey-mousey final section and copying the 1st corner from Interlagos - sort of.

3) Sakhir / Bahrain International
The Desert GP gets P3 from me because this is probably the track on which Tilke's philosophy of track design is best set in stone. The Turn 1-2-3 combination is one of the best solutions for an overtaking opportunity at the end of the main straight, which has by now inspired many amateur track designers, including those on the MyTracks section of this board. And the run from the infield to the finish line has a great flow as well. It's just that the first part of the infield is too mickey-mousey once again, and there isn't much interesting in terms of elevation changes, but what else can you do in the desert? Sandstorms interrupting winter testing are pretty unique, as was the debut GP of Nico Rosberg, so I got to like this track.

4) Streets of Singapore
This street circuit turned out very nice. It's a track of the US type of street circuit that's been absent from this world championship for way too long. I don't mind the twiddly chicane in front of the city hall. But messing up the pitlane entry was bad, and all the water tanks in front of concrete walls seem questionable as a security measurement when some SAFER barriers should be in place in the more risky areas. Remember Kovalainen's accident in the 2008 Spanish GP? You can't absorb speed like that with a water tank.

5) Gotemba / Fuji Speedway
Tilke's edit of Fuji Speedway turned out to be quite nice, for his standards at least. He fixed many of the old track's issues, like the lethal runoff problem in the final corner, whilst still keeping in place the whole go-round of 300R complete with a new Dunlop Chicane. The new Daiichi (1st corner) is fine, too, and tightening the Hairpin Corner worked out well, too. Still, cutting up the 1st half of 300R into straight bits linked by kinks looks too much like a CGI artifact.

6)Sepang
The flow of this one is OK, but races here have been rather dull, which subtracts from the points score. The main grandstand being the infield is a unique touch, and the first and 2nd corners are nice, too. But the track is way too flat all around.

7)Hockenheim
Ruining the place was what Bernie and the owners wanted, so cars pass by sponsor logos more often by ways of a shorter lap time. Unfortunately, one of the last remaining highspeed circuits had to go. Highscore for the local environmentalists who have by now regrown trees on the section leading up to the Jim Clark chicane all the way around Ostkurve and through the Ayrton Senna Chicane. Just like at Fuji, Tilke tried to stay true to the original character here, by placing a slightly curved straight across the infield, leading up to, you guessed it, a hairpin. And he added the sharp left of the Mercedes Arena as an opportunity for overtaken drivers to rebound, which has been witnessed quite often until now. But by taking out the forest straights, he completely removed the challenge of having to go round the twisty Motodrom with a low wing highspeed setup. That's why the seats in the Motodrom now remain more than half-empty, and people go to the Mercedes Arena instead.
Ruining the Motodrom experience is the real downer here.


8) Shanghai International
The 2 shell-shaped corners of this track are quite nice, but the races were even more dull here than at Sepang, and the megalomaniac bridge across the pit straight makes this track look like it was designed for a James Bond movie. Plus, its lack of elevation changes makes it another bore.

9)Cape Town proposal
Straight-sharp corner-straight-sharp corner-straight-Esses-straight-sharp corner-straight. That's what it looks like. It's not flowing at all, but got all the elements that should theoretically invite for overtaking - turned to the extreme. Not my cup of tea, but it wasn't built.

10) Valencia America's Cup Harbor
Dull. Period. I watched the qualifying on TV but turned it off because it was boring. There are a lot of grandstands around the circuit that don't have a view of the cars on the track except for them rushing by at high speeds. They are way better suited to watch what's going on in the harbor basin.
And the sharp corners at the end of straights don't really add overtaking opportunites because these are not real straights but always slightly kinked ones. Let's have the Circuit Ricardo Tormo instead soon to save the money that is necessary to set up this dull track every year.

[Purist]

None of the "straights" at Spa are truly straight. And actually, at least two of those five "straights" into tight corners have as much potential for passing as most of Tilke's straight-hairpin combinations on his permanent circuits.

Yannick, There is no 300R at Fuji anymore. If they needed to do something, put in multi-layer tire barriers or SAFER barriers; don't put in a chicane and triple hairpin just for the hell of it. The edit of Hockenheim, aside from destroying much of the circuit's character, demonstrates a real flaw in a number of newer designs. That hairpin at Hockenheim, along with the ones at Shanghai and possibly Bahrain are simply too tight. You have long straights before them, but they're so acute you can't reliably out-panic-brake the guy in front and hold your line (the optimum/inside line). Heck, the braking on F1 cars is so good that outbraking in general isn't all that easy.

It's also interesting that slipstreaming works so well on the main straight at Monza, but is not occurring in nearly as noticeable a way on the straights at Bahrain or Shanghai. The extra 400m of straight at Fuji compared with China and Bahrain does seem to largely solve that problem. Also of note is that the less acute hairpins at Fuji do seem to work better. Even so, I still am not very happy with Fuji now given what they did to it.

[Purist]

I figured I'd post this separately from the other stuff.

The new Tilke-designed Moscow Raceway is 4.07km (2.529 miles). The width is to vary from 12-21m. It runs anti-clockwise with 15 corners (9 left, 6 right). The back straight is the longest of the track at 873m. Estimated top speed on the straight for F1 is 311km/h. The estimated F1 lap time is given as 1:16.00, whcih would be an average of just under 120mph (Hungaroring territory).

Read into this what you will, but I think the forthcoming Russian GP will be a rather processional affair.

The start/finish straight looks to be ~400m. There is another long, flat-out section, but it's not straight enough to set up a run on the guy in front. Also, there is one run of four slow to medium-speed corners not separated by a significant straight. And later in the lap, a run of eight slow to medium-speed corners with no significant straight between them.

This is going to sound crazy, Yannick, but if I was going to pick a new venue for either of the Spanish F1 events, I'd go with the GP circuit at Motorland Aragon (assuming they didn't make F1 use that huge chicane on the backstretch).

[parkingjedi]

Originally Posted by ChrisPage

And the emancipation of Hockenhiem should surly be seen as a crime against humanity (I imagine that was Tilke?!).

What say folk?!

dont forget his butchering of the Österreichring in Austria - one fantastic fast flowing circuit effectively neutered and now rotting away.

[the.cosmic.pope]

Wasn't the Österreichring dead anyway? And the rebuilt version was hardly bad. 2 slow corners (which were still decent anyway), the rest were relatively fast. Turn 4 though to the end was beautiful.

[Andy77]

Well fast challenging corners died with Senna at Imola until the Sepang circuit became part of the schedule. The Österreich/A1 Ring was unfortunate enough to get its rebuilt done in just that phase from 1994 to 1999