McLAREN

[Valve Bounce]

I find it unbelievable that McLaren are scratching to score points this year. There was a time, not so long ago, where it was expected to see two McLarens on the front row, where every race was a dogfight between McLaren and Ferrari. Where McLaren seemed to have a lease on the podium steps. Since Ferrari swiped McLaren's computer guru, all sorts of weird things happened to McLaren. OK, so I do not underestimate the importance of the computer guru in engine management and all the other electronic wizardry that none of us fully understand. But to see them scratching for points behind Renault and wishing that Renault would go kaput so that they can get ahead is very unlike McLaren. When will McLaren make a comeback, and HOW??

[f1manoz]

Formula One goes in cycles, and McLarens stay at the top was relatively short, I know, but they have been at or near the top for 5 years now.

Also, a lot of the team did not change for a long time. Hakkinen and Coulthard were partners from 1996, Mercedes have been there since 1995 and the loss of Morgan really set them back and Newey can't be expected to produce a world-beater everytime!!

IMO McLaren won't make a comeback until Mercedes start building the engine themselves. The Ilmor/Mercedes unit this year is seriously down on power compared to the Ferrari and Williams, and although Illien and Ilmor are doing the best they can, Mercedes have a brilliant track record in motorsport. Perhaps it's time they had a go themselves?

[calais]

you have a point.
when you have an outside somewhat independant engine builder, they will place as much emphasis on the financial bottom line as they would on performance. just look at cosworth before ford bought them.
i have read somewhere that mercedes are proud of the fact that they dont spend as much as the other F1 engine builders,so maybe a lack of financial input is a problem as well.
although 3 to 4 years ago we wouldnt be having this debate, so i dont really know what the problem is

[Jukebox]

Well i don know why about this year but i can tell you why they are having problems last year. Since they have this new wind tunnel(2001) at their Paragon factory, they've been having all sort of problems with their aero package, it is said that there are few slight incorrect data provided by the wind tunnel..especially with the front end of the car on the the wing and downforce in particular.

[neilap]

MacLaren Honda sounds sooo good. Ok, back to reality. It seems that they have just been cought up. While Ferrari seems to be making small steps they dont. William and especially Ranault have nade leaps. I think this year they should reall access what the next step in their evolution will be. Illmor is not cutting it.

[RWC]

It WILL take them awhile to get back to the top(if they do).MOST of the prob is the engine-the lead time of researching & building a better engine than BMW is a LOOONNG time.And do they drop all development of their current engine?No,they can only allocate a certain amount of resources to the new one -or get more staff-whom they have to train.More time spent.They've been snookered by BMW so all they can do is plan to outdo them in future.

[DNQ]

Well, this year we are in a similar cycle to the one from the early late 70's and early 80's, that is Ferrari, Williams and Renault at the top, with McLaren a bit furthur back, suffering from a world championship 'hangover' if you like. You can't stay at the top forever. 1998, they were THE best, 1999 also, except for a series of ridiculos problems. And 2000, also, was an unlucky year.

Since Berrylium (spelling?) was banned, the Ilmor units have just been down on power. Last year, is a case in point, the McLaren wins (Brazil, Austria, Britain, US), came from tracks where power isn't everything. At Monza, they were nowhere.

They've got all the ingredients in place except for a good engine it seems. Despite Malaysia, reliability is actually quite good - they will win a handful of races this year if they are lucky, but no way the can challenge for the title, sadly.

[Amaroo Park]

as well as the car not being up to scratch maybe the team has found that Coultard isn't the team leader they thought he could be.

[RWC]

Damn-lost the message i was writing!
Anyway the gist of it was that i agree with DNQ.They got hit hard when beryllium was banned.They were more advanced in it's use than anyone else.A conspiracy in favour of ferrari?haha.Maybe ,but it had to be banned -it was quite toxic.Plus what colin bond said(grin)

[Mr V]

Originally posted by colinbond
as well as the car not being up to scratch maybe the team has found that Coultard isn't the team leader they thought he could be.

dc's one and only realistic chance for the wdc (before kimi gets his feet under the table properly!) and they produce this car!!

[Don K]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
But to see them (= McLaren) scratching for points behind Renault and wishing that Renault would go kaput so that they can get ahead is very unlike McLaren.

Well, in fact we haven't seen much of that during this season either:

Only in Australia, Trulli retired (2nd) ahead of one of the McLarens (1st and 7th at that time).
But in Malaysia, both McLarens (3th and 4th) were ahead of both Renaults (6th and 7th) when their problems started.
And in Brasil, they were 4th and 5th against 6th and 7th when the problems started.

[Nicholas]

Well, we all thought it was pretty bad for Mika last year...he had the speed, but a relatively poor Mclaren. Now DC can't even get speed.

[Valve Bounce]

DonK, at one stage we hade Renault McLaren Renault McLaren, and it wasn't funny for a McLaren supporter. I mean we are talking about these guys who were flat out qualifying and finishing ahead of the Minardis. Renault have improved by leaps and bounds, but McLaren seems to have gone backwards in their development.

[paulzinho]

Anyone else think the Newey going to Jaguar crisis last year has had an impact? It can't have helped can it? Also one of the Ilmor owners was killed too. And Mika leaving. So many factors really.

[The Accomplice]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
McLaren seems to have gone backwards in their development.

Isn't it Mercedes have gone backwards and not McLaren?

[Tristan]

or rather Ilmoor. The cars for the past two years have been fine, only the engine power hasn't really been there OR HAS RELIABILITY. That's all.

Oh yes, and a diver who couldn't be bothered for the majority of last year who, when he just happens to FANCY driving fast wins races. Only for the most part he couldn't be arsed.

[neilap]

Somehow I do not feel that Brazil reflects where the Mac's are. Renault is doing good but right now I dont feel that they are as fast as MacLaren. By the end of the year though I think it will be fun.

[Spudgun]

The teams yoyo up and down the grid over the years..

Williams were up there for the early to mid 90's, then in '98 things went a bit pear-shaped and next thing they're mid-field runners.

McLaren were the cars to beat in the late eighties and very early nineties, then it al fell apart. Just look at '95!

Ferrari weren't really there at all in the early nineties, but then started to turn it around from '96 onwards.

Benetton/Renault were there in '94/'95 but then fell off a bit.

So I think it's a case of Renault thing are starting to come together and McLaren have just lost their way at the moment. I think they'll improve once they eek some more power out of the engine.

[mariov]

Well the Illmore situation is one big factor, the deat of the administrative partner cant be put aside.Illien now has to effectively manage the company, instead of spending all his time overseeing the engineering....And he is not an administrator, he is an engineer.

McLaren have to put their plan into action and bring Illmore into McLalen Int. Liberate Illien so that he can do what he does best.

[Suzy]

Originally posted by mariov
Well the Illmore situation is one big factor, the deat of the administrative partner cant be put aside.Illien now has to effectively manage the company, instead of spending all his time overseeing the engineering....And he is not an administrator, he is an engineer.

McLaren have to put their plan into action and bring Illmore into McLalen Int. Liberate Illien so that he can do what he does best.

As far as I can understand it, they are trying to do this but can't at the moment as the late Paul Morgan's family are after more money than McLaren are prepared to pay. I think there are a few shareholder battles that need to be resolved first before McLaren can take over Illmor. I'm not a McLaren employee so I really don't know the details.

[Valve Bounce]

OK, here is another obvious problem. Mario Theissen says that with the new rules for 2004 where engines have to last the whole weekend or the car has to be moved back 10 places on the grid(which doesn't apply to Minardi, by the way), new engines have to be designed and built. So who is going to design and build new engines for McLaren?

[mariov]

Originally posted by Suzy


As far as I can understand it, they are trying to do this but can't at the moment as the late Paul Morgan's family are after more money than McLaren are prepared to pay. I think there are a few shareholder battles that need to be resolved first before McLaren can take over Illmor. I'm not a McLaren employee so I really don't know the details.

Yes they have resolved all of the shareholders except for Paul Morgan's famely, they are holding out for more cash....
but how much more? And are their engine problem costing them more in the end then giving in to it?

[RT]

Originally posted by f1manoz

IMO McLaren won't make a comeback until Mercedes start building the engine themselves. The Ilmor/Mercedes unit this year is seriously down on power compared to the Ferrari and Williams, and although Illien and Ilmor are doing the best they can, Mercedes have a brilliant track record in motorsport. Perhaps it's time they had a go themselves?

I agree, Ilmor is clearly not up to the task. Mercedes needs to see the current condition as a strategic drawback that goes farther than the F1 arena.

Can anyone say that you'd buy a Mercedes sportscar without thinking that BMW may have the best engineering?. Mercedes needs to wake up and supply McLaren with more power. Both Mercedes and McLaren have an enormous amount of tradition and future goals at stake. They have to build the engine in Germany, with their own resources, like BMW does (or Ferrari in Italy, for that matter).

Cheers,

RT

[Valve Bounce]

Yes, and supply engines for one other team - MINARDI?

[DSMJUNIOR]

Mclaren have a history of relatively short periods at the very top and then low spells. Maybe Ron's lost the plot? don't you see the nervous tic?