A Thought to Barrichello's relative pace compared to Schumacher

[EERO]

This season, Rubens has been much closer to Schumacher than any previous teamate has been able to be and now, has beaten him for the second time on track, (though we cannot really know what the machinations were today)

But I would venture that Rubens has proven himself to be fast enough and consistent enough to be considered as #1 for Ferrari. If, as has been suggested elsewhere, that Michael might in fact retire this season after tieing Fangio, then I think we could b econfident that Barrichello would be a capable #1 this year.

I am not saying that I believe this scenario will unfold, but Michael's apparentdominaence IS slipping. Whether it is increasing conservatism; the distractions of Family life; team orders; or a request from Bernie not to rub the the noses of the rest of the field in their own uncompettiveness-something is afoot, and I expect that we will be in for a surprise at season's end.

[freud]

I think time is right for Michael to retire, he is getting old and 'blinding pace and aggression' is just not there. Considering the fact that Rubens Barrichello is one of the '2nd tier' drivers on grid, I must say that if MS had any 'first tier' driver as his teammate this year, he would've been thouroughly beaten. By 'first tier' drivers I mean JPM, Raikonnen, JV, Heidfeld, DC etc.

If MS continues like this we might see him disgraced and thoroughly beaten by Rubens next year. Retiring at end of this season will be a graceful exit for him.

[kdr]

[Raven]

I’ve always rated RB as a damn good driver, although MS is still (and was today) worth a good 2/3 tenths a lap over him. I think it's also a case of this years Ferrari being so good, that RB and MS are both able to extract what is as close to the maximum. Put them in Jordans and it might be a different matter. Great drivers show their stuff when the car is not so simple.

That being said, I also think that when you see incidents like Austria, the "equal equipment" between Schumacher and team mates argument is flawed. So the gap has often been exaggerated over the years, IMO.

On the retirement rumours - there may be something in it. Nigel Roebuck speculated pre-season in his Autosport column that MS may hang it up after 2002 if its another walk in the park. Now Damon Hill also foresees it happening, mainly because of the same reasons. RB is pushing him and he can't get any higher in the sport.

I reckon he'll go on for at least 1 more year and try to break Fangio's record.

[freud]

Yeah, being beaten by a 2nd tier driver is humiliating for sure... MS would never want that to happen on a consistent basis.

[Rambo]

Michael was faster today - by a good half a second on his best lap. You could see he was quicker the way he was all over Rubens. Still, Rube was making him push very hard - hence the mistake. But Michael could not possibly have passed Rubens today - if he did, whatever happened, people would have cried 'fix'. I'm waiting to see the FORIX racechart, but...

The only place Rubens has really beaten Michael was the A1 ring. In any case, Rubens doesn't qualify well enough and race consistently enough (he's had wobles this year, too - see Canada) to lead the team if Michael retired.

Maybe when Schuey beats (rather than just equals) Fangio's championships, he'll retire. He's seriously hinted he would if he gets injured again. You could try getting out your voodoo doll if you want rid of him that badly!

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe! Maybe! Maybe! and Maybe Ross Brawn will run out of bananas at the end of the year.
I don't, for one minute, believe that MSch will retire end of 2002.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Raven
I think it's also a case of this years Ferrari being so good, that RB and MS are both able to extract what is as close to the maximum. Put them in Jordans and it might be a different matter. Great drivers show their stuff when the car is not so simple.

Excellent point Raven. I think it was Martin that made that point earlier in the year.

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
I don't, for one minute, believe that MSch will retire end of 2002.

Me either. And those that are saying he's losing his edge, what races are you watching? I think thats more wishful thinking than reality.

[Liz]

And I don't believe that TGF has any hope of ever equalling Fangio on any level -- the two men are from different planets when it comes to racing.

Since TGF continues to be too frightened of every other driver on the grid to dare race him on a level playing field in equal equipment, man to man, only he himself knows (if he will even admit it to himself) how competitive Rubens is with him. Or anyone else for that matter. But I think he'll retire before his family are old enough to hear what people are saying and ask him "Daddy, why are all those people booing you? Did you do something wrong?" And as low as I believe he'd stoop, I don't think he'd stoop to lying to his kids.

[Valve Bounce]

WHY?

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

[EERO]

I'm not saying that I believe he will retire either-but a lot of people around F1 ARE saying he might. I also see the logic of their arguments. Whether or not you believe Rubens to be at Michael's level, he is closer than anyone else and I think this supports the argument.

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe we want to see JPM in the second Ferrari instructed to race MSch. Maybe he faster than Rubens.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

[downforce]

HOWEVER, EERO I seriously believe backmarkers played a solid role in both Monaco and yesterday at the Nurburgring.

If Schumacher didnt have the train of Saubers+Renaults [i think?] am quite positive he wouldve JUST got passed Rubens.
The same with Monaco too. The fact that even Michael doesnt whine this excuse [unlike moi!] says something about the man.

I believe he wont be able take the pressure of not being allowed to come back at Rubens even after a spin for long enough and therefore will switch teams next season!

Renault? Toyota? Mclaren!

[downforce]

Why wont he be allowed to get back at Rubens?
'Coz Ferrari are scared of Liz!!!:-)

[drexel]

Michael retiring?

More wishful thinking for some people.

Yeah Rubens is approaching Michael's speed..hmmmm... Anyone notice how long it took for Michael to make up the 10 second defecit after the first stop? Not to mention that Rubens had both Ralf and Montoya between him and Schu at the beginning and Michael caught him then too.

How about the 'the quickest man over a lap in F1' scaring him. Yeah that 0.009sec difference in quals must of scared Ralf (who can't pass) so much that he blew TCM (best passer in F1) away from the outside on the first lap... and Michael who is umm 'slower' then Ralf (alternate universe) is retiring because of it.

[f1manoz]

Rubens has, so far this season, proven to be as quick as Schu at times, but he's still not consistently equal, and beating, his team-mate.

Rubens has proven to be the almost perfect no. 2 though - he's there for when something goes wrong with the lead car (although that rarely happens) and he does his job efficiently and to the great advantage of the team and the team atmosphere. He gets on well with the team, and more importantly, with Schu.

Rubens is closer to Schu as a team-mate than anyone else in his GP career, except for perhaps Martin Brundle in 1992 who, after a slow start, really showed up the young pretender at a lot of races.

[eldougo]

I CAN,T BELIEVE IT MICHEAL WAS ONLY PLAYING
WITH RUBENS HE COULD HAVE PASSED HIM AHYTIME
IN THE LAST 10 LAPS ,RUBENS JUST CAN,T KEEP
THE TIME LAP AFTER LAP LIKE MICHEAL CAN AN THAT
IT .

[EERO]

Look, first of all I'm not saying that Michael is "scared" of anyone, but NO driver has managed to sustain a competitive edge for as long as Schumacher has managed it. He's been a serious threat for 12 years now-that's unheralded by anyone except possibly Prost who had to contend with Senna as a teammate and who took a sabbatical in '92. The time is approaching when he will retire and I think several people have made compelling arguments about why it might be sooner rather than later. There is no question that he is still the best driver out there, but there is plenty of precedent for drivers at the top of their game calling it a day. May I just name Stewart, Hawthorne, Prost for a few.

[Glen]

For me, there's a lot of sense in wha driver's say - that the better the car gets, the easier it is to drive right on the limit. The limit is the limit - it's finding it and staying within a fraction of it that makes a better driver - the F2002, as Rubens has himself said, is so easy to drive that they can both use it flat-out, thereby taking away the advantage hitherto enjoyed my Schumacher.

The other facets that make a driver a champion, rather than merely a driver, still remain however - and in terms of car development, race craft, consistency, performance under pressure... all that stuff... Michael is without peer. A young-gun like Montoya may well have the legs on him over one lap but that's not what the points are awarded for.

[Mr V]

I agree with you about the difference between TGF and Rubens there Glen, i do feel that the better car is bringing the gap down somewhat and thats why (i believe) Rubens appears to be doing a better job than Eddie Irvine, because the car is better now than it was in Eddies day!

Originally posted by Glen
A young-gun like Montoya may well have the legs on him over one lap but that's not what the points are awarded for.

Just wish JPM had the car to sustain it over a race distance!

[Liz]

If TGF were not afraid of all the other guys on the grid, he would race them equally. Can you imagine Senna being told to pull over for Prost BECAUSE he was showing himself possibly capable of beating Prost in equal equipment on equal terms? Sounds absurd, doesn't it?

And it would be.

If TGF isn't afraid to race Rubens on equal terms, then why does he have to have a contract ordering Rubens not to compete with him?

[freud]

Liz is correct and that's one reason why I consider Prost a better driver than TGF. Many people who give Shu an edge over Prost fail to realize that Prost always had a great driver as his teammate. Senna, Lauda, Mansell, Hill, he's had them all.

TGF is a great driver, to be honest I am a fan of his skill. But there will always remain a shadow of dubt over his ability. He's always had just too much technical advantage over his teammates and all of them were far from great.

As far as retirement for TGF is concerned, I am with EERO on this one. Imho its high time for TGF to gracefully exit from the sport, like Stewart did in 70's. He is starting to become the lauging stock of the paddock now.

[Rambo]

Yes... but I remember Senna was rather picky with his team mates, too... At least Eddy and Rubens were drivers that had shown some talent - Rubens should really have won a couple of GPs in that Stewart, for crying out loud.

But Schuey did beat Piquet, his team mate, when he first came into F1. Piquet was hardly a second rater, even in his later years.

But look at the last couple of years - Schu has been consistently faster than Rubens. So why should Rubens suddenly manage to drive the car quickly? Traction control, and a brilliantly balanced car. Schuey's skill is being wasted right now as the car is too easy to drive! "Even a monkey could do it!"

[downforce]

Originally posted by Liz
If TGF isn't afraid to race Rubens on equal terms, then why does he have to have a contract ordering Rubens not to compete with him?

You have a copy of this to support your accusation?:confused:

[z2252314]

I dont think Rubens was quicker at the Ring, It appeared to me that Michael seemed a good 2 to 3 tenths quicker on each lap. However, I do agree with your suggestion that Rubens would be a capable number 1 in any other team, and yes, with a dominant car like this year he could make a run for the championship if Schui was gone. However, when the gap closes to williams and Mclaren, those 2 to 3 tenths that Michael carries will be extremely valuable. Whats more, Michael has the consistency. Just look at Barrichello's Monaco performance for example. He can be extremely good when everythings right, but if a few things go wrong he can have a very ordinary race. Add to that the mental toughness which is essential to win a WDC, and suddenly Rubens doesnt look that good at all. Michael still has all the aggression, just look at how he passed JPM and then nearly went right off the track to defend JPM's counter attack. Michael shows agression when its needed (take Brazil earlier this year). Rubens will have his good days, and on his best, he can perhaps match Michael. But can he consistently beat Michael? I think not.