Who agrees with Mike Cotton?

[old man]

Interesting piece on DSC with which I agree, he must have been reading our various threads, what does anybody else think?

[eddsc]

No, Michael definitely doesn't read ten-tenths. I reckon FIA GTs needs to overcome the current lack of appeal of the two hour events.. and the two pit stops.
I suggested to Michael that races should be of one (2 races at one meeting), two, three, four, five and six hours duration, plus the Spa 24 - he agreed, with the exception of two one hour races: he hates those. OK, drop that, and let's have a championship of six big events, on proper circuits.

[SALEEN S7R]

If you want a Championship consisting of only 6 or so events consisting of races of various distances then go to the LMS. If however you want spectator friendly races then stick with the current format. FIA GT this year is racing at circuits which are some of the best in the world, sure not all of them can claim that status but all of the circuits the series visits this year are all very good international level tracks. IMO.

Personally I like the current format, maybe though they could do with getting rid of the 2 pitstop requirement and let the teams pit when they want to. After all even the GT2 class cars would have to make a stop over a 2 hour race distance length. Of course they might not need to change tyres with things as they are but a control tyre could always be introduced to increase tyre wear and make tyre changes more necaessary than they are now.

[Graham Goodwin]

Spectator friendly the circuits might be but all too often there are precious few spectators!

[geeteeone]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Spectator friendly the circuits might be but all too often there are precious few spectators!

There were a hell of a lot more spectators at Oschersleben than the last LMS round at the Nurburgring.

[Fogelhund]

I agree that..

The pit stop rule needs to be eliminated.

I disagree that...

Inspection needs to be changed. It is the responsibility of the teams to ensure that their cars are in compliance with the rules. If a team is at all concerned, perhaps they should ask for an inspection early on in the week, voluntarily, not manditory. Yes, it is disappointing when results change, but the fault of that is with the teams, not organizers.

[HORNDAWG]

I think Cotton hit it pretty much right on the head. I agree 100%!!

L.P.

[SebringMG]

I am undecided tbh - while i like the 6 hour format of the LMS i actually think this is the biggest hinderance to the future of the sport as a spectator event at the track unless they substantially improve the state of the tracks they race on - ie. good radio coverage, screens, maybe some alternate attractions for those moments when you feel like you need a break (LM has got it right).

Back to the question though FIA GT is fine at the 2 hour mark as long as they get rid of the daft 2 pitstop rule. It is sportscar racing NOT endurance racing (leave that for the LMS) - while i like the Spa 24 i do think it was better as a touring car race, grids are too small atm unless it is combined with LMS for a single race ? Besides i have other things i like to do on a sunday other than spend the best part of it watching a race (6 sundays for the LMS is fine - no more though).

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

while i like the 6 hour format of the LMS i actually think this is the biggest hinderance to the future of the sport

But it is supposed to be "endurance" racing after all . I think the 6 hour or 1000KM is perfect .

I wouldnt be bothered to travel to see the Fia Gt for a 2 hour race , good racing as it is .

[JAG]

Originally Posted by geeteeone

There were a hell of a lot more spectators at Oschersleben than the last LMS round at the Nurburgring.

That may well be true but Nurburgring is the worst attended LMS round of the year.

FIA GT has been running in various incarnations for almost 15 years and from the TV pictures Oscherslaben appeared almost deserted.

The racing was desperately dull and the series has stagnated in terms of new cars.

What will happen to FIA GT if Vitaphone and another major team leave?

I could quite easily see Vitaphone being in the running for an R10 or 908 in the LMS.

4 hr races with 50 GT3 cars would appeal and keep FIA GT alive and kicking.

[SALEEN S7R]

I was talking about the races being spectator friendly Graham rather than the actual circuits themselves. For me, and lots of other casual (admitedly not generally for the hardcore fans that we get here) motorsport fans the FIA GT format as it is is very good. As much as I love the LMS I do often find myself getting a little bored, so often this year has it been about 1 or 2 cars per class just dissapearing off into the distance after the first couple of hours and everyone else just trailing in their wake, this is particulary the case in LMP1. IMO. At least in FIA GT you get good close hard racing for the entire duration of the race.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by geeteeone

There were a hell of a lot more spectators at Oschersleben than the last LMS round at the Nurburgring.

There was also a big crowd for FIA GT at Silverstone this year, certainly bigger than in previous years. I would say the race day figure was approaching 30,000. Even if the figure wasnt quite that high exactly it is still a heck of a lot more than what we will see for the LMS at Silverstone this year I think.

[Marcel ten Caat]

FIA GT at Oschersleben had 30.000 over the weekend.
LMS at Nürburgring I don't know.
some kind of race at the Nordschleife on the LMS weekend (saturday) got 7.000 spectators.

[Graham Goodwin]

I wasn't inviting a comparison with the LMS - I think that series has a different set of 'issues' principally surrounding an almost complete lack of promotion and almost nil help for the paying spectators to make sense of what is going on in the race (why on earth for instance when the majority of cars used position lights at LM were they removed for an LMS race 2 weeks later!!!). Why the continued (and senseless) lack of any multi-lingual commentary on the web and locally at the circuits?

My point is that whatever promotion is going on isn't hacking it - I would agree that Silverstone had some sort of crowd but it was NOWHERE near 30,000 despite what I thought was a reasonable stab by SRO, the RAC and others - That means that either they are going for the wrong market or that they have a product that the public don't want to buy.

And don't get too wrapped up in grid numbers either - The Citation Cup is on the FIA GT grid for one reason - They are worried about numbers and the half dozen or so extras that this has attracted might be pretty and make a nice noise but they do nothing for the racing spectacle other than providing traffic that's too fast in a straight line for the leading GT2 cars to get by safely.

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

But it is supposed to be "endurance" racing after all . I think the 6 hour or 1000KM is perfect .

I wouldnt be bothered to travel to see the Fia Gt for a 2 hour race , good racing as it is .

It is the perfect length for an endurance event - however without the atmosphere that makes LM work i don't see it an LMS race bringing in the number of spectators required to make it an economic success -

[JAG]

Group C showed 1000K events with manufactuer support, promotion and a good few years behind them can bring in the crowds.

When they chased TV ratings and shortened events it was the begining of the end.

LMS doesn't yet have the necessary promotion or manufactuer suppoprt behind it, neither has it really established itself in the wider world yet.

Attract Audi and another manufactuer to P1, and I firmly believe it will take off.

With Peugeot using the 908 in primetime TV ad's, if nothing else, it shows the big money and potential behind these kinds of manufactuer efforts, which can only benefit the LMS long term.

[minimangler]

I think perhaps sprint racing is the way to go, but do away with the two pitstop rule, its confusing and silly. How about a driver doin it solo if he wants to?
FIA GT should be maybe a 2hour (excepting Spa) race and have as many or few pitstops as wanted. And do away with stupid rules like being pushed/driving around the paddock. That's just bloody silly.

[TWK]

As far as he goes, I agree with Michael Cotton, but I think there are issues with the GT classes beyond those he addresses within FIA-GT. Specifically to Mr. Cotton's article:

Nor is the GT conundrum limited to the ALMS and Le Mans-style racing. The respected Michael Cotton has recently taken the FIA-GT to task for silly rules and even sillier administration of those rules. Nor do we (or Mr. Cotton, it seems) believe that “success weight” is an appropriate concept for the pinnacle of GT racing. But all that still begs the question. The question, of course, is declining participant interest. Twenty-four entered the recent Oschersleben event. Yes, two classes, unlike the ACO-rules four, but twenty-four cars is twenty-four cars, period. We’d talk about declining spectator interest, but you can’t decline from nothing, can you? As much as we agree that Mr. Cotton's recommendations may make FIA-GT racing somewhat more attractive, we don’t think they’ll get at the malaise that afflicts the “super car,” and street car” based racing classes.

What I believe is that it is time to get rid of GT1 entirely, and GT2, also. There is no reason that Porsche and Ferrari should be in a lower class than Corvette and Aston Martin. That makes no rational sense. Is the handwriting on the wall?

The ACO itself is taking aim at the GTs. First, by floating a vision of prototype cars that are so like GT1 that the class can’t avoid becoming redundant. Then, at Le Mans, saying it was (nearly) time to do something about GT2 costs. What do you suppose that gives you? Right. Something like GT3.

The rest of my thoughts are here:

http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...d=158&Itemid=1

[WouterM]

Originally Posted by JAG

Group C showed 1000K events with manufactuer support, promotion and a good few years behind them can bring in the crowds.

When they chased TV ratings and shortened events it was the begining of the end.

LMS doesn't yet have the necessary promotion or manufactuer suppoprt behind it, neither has it really established itself in the wider world yet.

Attract Audi and another manufactuer to P1, and I firmly believe it will take off.

With Peugeot using the 908 in primetime TV ad's, if nothing else, it shows the big money and potential behind these kinds of manufactuer efforts, which can only benefit the LMS long term.

Group C also had the smallest grids in history. It always amazes that when looking back all the bad aspects are forgotten. Somehow what happened in the 1980s motor racing has stuck as ideal; turbos in F1, Group B in rallying and Group C in sportscar racing.

Sure Group C had a lot of manufacturers, but few were committed (financially) to the extent that would be needed now to make a successful program. Being at Le Mans was what seemed to matter back then, but marketing now dictates that winning is the only reason to go. I'd rather see fully committed people like Martin Short and Henri Pescarolo face the giants than to see the half-hearted attempts of the past return.

[old man]

So the opinion seems to be that 2 hours is perhaps acceptable but get rid of the 2 pit stop rule.

As I think I said before somewhere, probably on the FIA thread, with one stop for fuel there are plenty professional drivers who would happily do the race alone and that would make for some excellent racing. You would need to restrict the number of people allowed to work on the car in the pit lane and DO NOT go for a control tyre, keep the tyre companies in competition.

We would attract only top drivers, spectator numbers would increase provided they were able to follow the progress of the cars after the pitstop.

If you go back to 3 hours then two drivers would be essential, but for a 2 hour race leave it to the teams

[SALEEN S7R]

Personally I would prefer to have just 1 driver per car. Fans like to support drivers, by having 1 driver per car people can identify with that car more easily than they can when there are 2 drivers per car. A good example of this is the DTM or even the WTCC. From a fans perspective it works. There would still be differnces between FIA GT and the DTM, like the fact FIA GT has what are IMO better cars and the ammount of people who can work on the car at any one time in the pit lane is limited to 2 people. I have to admit though if the ACO did adopt DTM/F1 style pitstops I think it would only be a good thing. Sure you woudnt need 20 or so people working on the car like F1 but perhaps 11 people.

[Graham Goodwin]

So you would reduce the potential income to the team by reducing from two to one driver but increase their costs by dramatically increasing the number of people on the team. That's not really going to work now is it?

[SALEEN S7R]

Dramatically increasing the number of people on the team? Most teams in FIA GT have sufficent numbers of engineers and mechanics to enable them to perform a 11 man pitstop Graham. As for reducing the potential income of the teams, well in GT1 a lot of the entries are running all professional driving line up's, by having to pay 2 drivers like they are now they are spending more money than they would be by running 1 driver per car.

[Graham Goodwin]

Very few teams have the available personnel to run an 11 man crew, particularly for two cars - Secondly, pro drivers they may be but most are being paid by a sponsor and not the team.

Never going to happen

[SALEEN S7R]

2 cars Graham? Im not suggesting that both cars pit at the same time, merley that there are 11 crew members for the pitstops. Sure it may never happen, but then again it might. Stranger things have happened in motorsport, a few years ago for example Moto GP was considered the poor relation to WSBK, these days however as we all know the situation is very different. The same applies with the ETCC, a few years ago it was just Alfa, BMW and Volvo now there are 3 factory teams and Alfa romeo looking to come back soon too and possibly Lancia and the series is a FIA world championship. Who would have said either of these things would have happened when you look back at how the Championships were in say 2000? Things can, and do change.