What would YOU do?

[Speedblood]

Ok so we all know that next year new rules are coming for LMP's.
We all know what the new rules are...sort of...

LMP2 as LMP1...mmmm...mouthwatering...

So now lets all let our imagination's run wild, or put our sensible caps on. Whatever suits you

What I want you to imagine is that the ACO for some reason decide you are the person to decide the new rules for next year and beyond.

In all seriousness I'm curious as to what peoples ideas are. I'm sure some of the veterans may want to see a return to group c rules, some may want the existing rules to stay as they are etc

After having read various peoples opinions in various threads on how the new rules look and what needs to be done to the current ones, I thought it would be a good idea to gather them all together so we can see what each other would like to see done.

I shall post mine in due course as I don't want to go ahead and type my "rather extensive" list as it may take a while...

So if any one would like to get the ball rolling it would be most appreciated

Over to you guys and gals

P.S of course be as realistic or far fetched as you like. It's what WE want to happen

[The Badger]

I would like to see the engine regs opened up again . Its a terrible thought to think that we might never see a V12 or a V10 again .

I would also like to see a differance between P1 and P2 , meaning that the cars look differant . I understand from a financial point of view, that its makes sense , example , Rebellion . They had a P1 and a P2 last year , so they only had to convert one to P1 , and not have to fork out for a new chassis , but I still dont like it from a personal point of view .

If people want to take up the green issue . Then give each entry a barrel of fuel and tell them to manage it . Some would dissagree , but I feel technology has come a long way since Group C too .

Just my thoughts .

Oh , and no noise restriction either !!!

[ensign14]

I would fundamentally redefine what sportscar racing is.

Make it in two classes. One, for anything that's road-legal with 2 seats. Two, for anything that's road-legal with 2 seats and produced in numbers. No idea yet what numbers, maybe a hundred, maybe a thousand. Not important, just so long as it can actually be bought.

To test road legality, all cars must be driven on a 50 mile course around Le Mans, with some fat knacker in the passenger seat so it can't be Zerex Special-ed. With some very strict gendarmes watching.

Maybe that way there will be a general development of things that will translate better to ordinary motoring. Encouraging manufacturers to participate whilst still allowing specialist builders.

Ideally, Le Mans ought to be between the likes of the Koenigsegg, the Zonda, the Ariel Atom, the Veyron and so on. They're all road cars, yet if they turned up au Mans they would be forbidden because of some trifling regulations. Why? Why not let 'em rip? They are surely far more in the spirit of the original Ronde Infernale than LMP1s.

And once you've got a Le Mans formula, you translate it around the world.

[tux1234]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I would like to see the engine regs opened up

Oh , and no noise restriction either !!!

Yes please!

[Tim the Grey]

Me? I'd give them X quantity of Kilojoules, and tell them to get on with it. Petrol/diesel/methane/electric/sail whatever you want.

Make it a testing ground for automotive technology, as it was in the start!

LMP1 and 2 are all very well, but I don't see much of that tech making it into roadcars...

[Marco23]

Hi everyboy, I'm new on this beautiful forum.
I join your comunity after reading this thread because I and other sprotscars enthusiast wrote regulations for Sportscars Races (especially prototype racing) just for fun. We wrote about the necessity to have a formula based on fuel consumption (similar to the one used during the Group C era) and to make Sportscar able to travel on normal roads to improve the links between Lmps and road-cars (especially in the aerodynamic field). We think also that is important to make Sportscars the most performant and safest racing cars on the face of the Earth. Unfortunately we wrote the "document" in Italian and we haven't yet found someone who is able to translate it.
http://www.sportscar-races-club.eu./...eg_LM_cons.pdf

[Speed-King]

and to make Sportscar able to travel on normal roads

I acutally like that. Perhaps not for all sportscar racing, but a series like that would be interesting nonetheless. That's also what I like about rallying... even WRCs must be street legal...

[Marco23]

Wrc are street legal. Isn't it?
Anyway we want to see street legal Sportscars even beacause it would be interesting to see parades on normal streets before the races (think about the parade before the Spa 24 Hours) or to make possible races like the "Tour de France" or the "Giro d'Italia" where the cars travel on public roads to reach the most important circuits of the nation. It would be an interesting pubblicity for the cars and the sport but it's impossibile with the actual Lmps due to the ground clearance and the cooling system.

[fieldodreams79]

More power and less downforce.

[dj choc ice]

Here is what I would run:

There would no longer an LMP1 and LMP2 category, just 1 prototype category. constructors could choose to build either a open or closed roof car. The car's would be matched on power to weight ratio so you could have a balls out 1000kg 800bhp car or a lighter car, say 600bhp but weighing around 800-850kg. Engine rules would require production based engines. N/A engines up to 8 litres and 12 cylinders, Supercharged up to 6.5 litres and 8 cylinders and turbo up to 6 litres and 8 cylinders. Cars would then be performance balanced at two test sessions. Noise limits would be relaxed back to 2005/2006 levels. Aero wise the LMP's would run something in between the current rules and LMP900.

For the GT categories I would do away with GT1 and GT2, lumping all the cars in a single class. The cars would be performance balanced ala GT3 style, meaning we will have heavy 600bhp+ cars running with lighter 450bhp+ cars running on a level playing field. Noise limits again would be relaxed in this class, expensive gimmicks such as carbon brakes etc would be done away with and no traction control or stability control is allowed. There would also be a budget cap for the GT class to stop spending going out of control, thus allowing privateer teams to have a chance of winning.
There would also be a championship for privateer teams with little or no factory support or with gentleman drivers. Think Citation cup here. The winning team receiving a large lump of money or sponsorship equal to that large lump of money.

I would go further and resurrect the WSCC in a 8 race format. The calender would go as follows and would get sports car racing a bit more out there.

Round 1: Sebring 12 hours.
Round 2: Monza 1000km.
Round 3: Spa 1000km.
Round 4: Fuji 500km.
Round 5: Macau 250km x2 (separate races for GT and LMP cars.)
Round 6: Silverstone 1000km.
Round 7: Petit Le Mans 10 hours.
Round 8: Interlagos 750km twilight race.

Teams with small budgets would get a bit of financial aid in terms of travelling costs to get to various events.

And to re-itirate, NO MORE NOISE LIMITS!

[Purist]

Actually, the ALMS has already done some events where there are in-town displays and such ahead of the race. They used to drive some of the cars across the Golden Gate Bridge back when the series ran at Sears Point.

A number of technologies from the LMPs have made it into road cars in some way, shape, or form. Unfortunately, I think a number of you guys ideas would end up devolving things to where the cars would just have technologies already on current road cars.

Sadly, the old, public road races are dead, and are NOT coming back.

Ensign, the Atom would get blown away on tracks like Le Mans. The Veyron would get blown away on tracks like the Algarve or Laguna Seca. In other words, people just wouldn't choose to run those cars, because they won't be consistently competitive. Also, it's been a long time since automakers saw fit to build multiple models of car to run at different events in the World Sportscar Championship. And a lot of those high-end sports cars simply don't have seats that will reasonably accomodate a "fat knacker", so your test won't exactly work. Finally, the only two cars that would be in your volume production class would be the Porsche 911 and the Chevrolet Corvette.

FoD79, insurers seem far more concerned with keeping absolute top speeds down, rather than controlling cornering speeds. Until that changes, your wish will NOT happen.

DJ, how do you plan to make a 450hp Porsche 911 competitive in the same class with a 650hp Corvette? Since frontal areas won't be commensurately different, the Corvette will have a decidedly higher top-end speed. Also, the Corvette will have substantially more torque, which will give it a better launch off the corners; the big V8 gives more torque for a given level of horsepower than does the Porsche flat-6, so there goes your weight balancing getting rid of the entire difference.

[Speed-King]

I am not sure what I would do about Prototypes, but here's what I would do about GTs:

Consolidate current GT1/2/3 into one class (GT2 and 3 are about equal as well and GT1 is with the new rules not far away) and add a GTU-class for cars that are downmarket from the current GT-cars, i.e. Coupes like the Audi TT, Nissan 370Z or BMW Z4 but also hot hatches like the VW Scirocco, Ford Focus RS500 and so on in a prep level similar to that of the Sciroccos in the 24 hours at the Nürburgring, i.e. about as fast (perhaps a little slower) as a regular Cup-Porsche...
I have no problem with the big upmarket cars, but there's definitely something about badass versions of more affordable cars and I think many of my all time favourite race cars come from that part of the market (i.e. Group 5 Zakspeed Capri, ITC Opel Calibra, IMSA GTU RX-7s...) And since touring car racing has abandoned those cars, I think they should find a home in sportscar racing.

[Marco23]

I do agree especially on the single LMP and GT class. In my opinion the best structure for endurance races would be:
Single LMP class: ILMC for constructors, LMS for privateers with the possibility for them to race with old and less-expensive cars. With this structure a constructor could sell its cars to privateers after having used them in the official team for one or more season.
Single GT class: VLN teaches that is possibile to have spectacle with gt3 against gt2, so...why not?
GT Open: This should be a class for the most important events, for example the LM24. In this class (with a limitate number of competitors) you could race with SuperGT, Gt1 or DTM cars (these are only examples to make you understand). It would be done to give a possibility to race at Le-Mans or other ACO important races for teams without ACO approved cars. Maybe you could give the possibility to race only one time (or one year), so the following year the team is forced to buy an ACO-approved car and the field of this class would be new every year.
In our document we write about the beauty of endurance races and the necessity to defend them (we are italians, and of course we aren't happy for the death of the Monza 1000kms) but we think also that it's necessary to give Sportscars more visibility on the Global scene and, of course, on TV. The only way to show entirely on important channels a race is to use sprint formats. Another interesting idea would be a race (a stand alone event) at the end of year (do you remember the 2000 Adelaide 1000kms?) to make the teams able to test the new regulations for the following year (in fact, every year ACO changes something in the regulations).

[Speed-King]

Here's something in that vein I wrote a few weeks ago on another forum, not just for sportscars but as a comprehensive ruleset for Sportscars, GTs, Rallyecars and Touring Cars:

Group 1: Showroom-Stock <2.5l
Group 2: Showroom-Stock >2.5l
Group 3: Modified Group 1 Showroom-Stock with spec rear wing and splitter, liberal engine regs, for Rally-cars AWD, even if not used in the production car
Group 4: Modified Group 2 Showroom-Stock with spec rear wing and splitter, liberal engine regs
Group 5: Unlimited , kinda like Group 5 od Super GT, the passenger cell must be retained, everything else can be silhouette
Group 6: Limited Prototype: A cross between LMP2 and Daytona Prototype, open Spyders with a (spec-??)Carbonfibre-monocoque that's placed within a tubeframe-Chassis. engines from Group 3 or 4 cars. Perhaps a spec rear wing.
If manufacturers want to play in that class they have to produce at least 25 (or perhaps rather 15) cars and sell those to privateers, this should keep the costs in check. No such limitations apply for boutique manufacturers
Group 7: Unlimited Prototype ("Big Cars"). Similar to current LMP1 a class for the manufacturers. The big cars only compete in a world champonship consisting of Sebring, Le Mans, Silverstone 1000k, Spa 1000k, PLM and 1 or 2 asian rounds. Otherwise, prototype sport is restricted to Group 6 cars, with the goal of establishing strong privateer based series.

[Fogelhund]

LMP1 - Open engine architecture, limited fuel usage to promote economy
LMP2 - Privateer - Like LMP-C, but with two chassis, open engine suppliers. Make engine rules to accept US Sprint car engines, which can make decent power, but can be purchased for $25,000 to $35,000 total, and run very reliably. Spec Tires
GT1 - same as current GT2
GT2 - At the level of GT-C performance. Open it up to three to four manufacturers maximum. Nissan 370Z, Mustang would be target type cars. Equalized performance, spec tires.

[Purist]

Now it's my turn to ante up.

I know some want a simplified class format, but I want to do a few things here to hearken back to some previous eras, not for its own sake necessarily, but to give greater flexibility. There will be LMP1, LMP2, and LMPM.

DJ, I do like your basic engine framework as the basis for a top category, but I think I'll tinker with it just a tad. I doubt anyone will use a Viper or Veyron engine for a prototype, so I'll adjust maximum engine sizes somewhat for LMP1.
Atmospheric: 7,000cc production, 6,000cc racing
Supercharged: 5,500cc
Single Turbo: 5,000cc
Twin Turbo: 4,000cc
Turbo Diesel: 5,000cc
Hybrid: 4,500cc

LMP2 will be solely for prototypes with production-based engines.
Atmospheric: 4,500cc
Turbo: 2,400cc
Turbo Diesel: 3,500cc

LMPM will be a class for prototypes with motorcycle engines, which will spotlight development of engines on the low end of the displacement range.
Atmospheric: 1,800cc
Turbo: 1,000cc

None of these three classes will have a limit on cylinders. The classes will run to the following maximum weights, with some adjustments based on individual characteristics. A sliding scale will apply, such that, a 600hp LMP1 will carry less weight than a 700hp P1. Testing will be done to adjust power output of diesels to offset their torque advantage.
LMP1: 900kg @ 800hp
LMP2: 620kg @ 550hp
LMPM: 340kg @ 300hp

Louvers and those raised noses like appear on the Audi R15 and Peugeot 908 are prohibited. A mildly raised middle to the nose, a la Chrysler LMP or Audi R8, is permitted. Rear wing endplates must be free-standing and separated from the rear bodywork. No structure may protrude up from the rear bodywork in this location. A minimum six inch gap must be present between the lower and front edges of the endplate and the rear bodywork. Shark fins and F-Ducts are banned.

I have yet to decide on further measures to limit downforce. One of the simplest ways may just be to mandate a minimum L/D figure, but what that exact number might be, I haven't decided.

All LMPs will not be allowed to have driver aids: no traction control, launch control, stability control, anti-lock brakes, AWD, etc. Also, paddle shifters are out. Manual or sequential boxes are mandatory. Carbon brakes are out.

[Purist]

As for GTs, I would keep GT1 and GT2.

However, GT1 would be opened back up in so much as power would be restored to 650-700hp, and weight pulled back to 1150kg minimum. i like the idea of the GT1s being more privately built. This gives greater flexibility in cars that can be produced for the class, and means that costs can't spiral out of control so much, because the boutique builders just don't have the massive resources of the manufacturers.

For the big events, there could be a GTX class for more experimental vehicles. This is where you would see a Porsche 918, or silhouette/concept cars.

I will say that the electronics in GT2 should be reeled . Those cars should have fully manual gearboxes. GT2 and GT1 should be devoid of driver aids. I would also like to see homologation opened up somewhat to allow more flexibility in models. I actually think cars like the Mosler, Ascari, Viper, and F430 Scuderia belong in the higher GT classes, as opposed to just GT3.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

LMP1 - Open engine architecture, limited fuel usage to promote economy
LMP2 - Privateer - Like LMP-C, but with two chassis, open engine suppliers. Make engine rules to accept US Sprint car engines, which can make decent power, but can be purchased for $25,000 to $35,000 total, and run very reliably. Spec Tires
GT1 - same as current GT2
GT2 - At the level of GT-C performance. Open it up to three to four manufacturers maximum. Nissan 370Z, Mustang would be target type cars. Equalized performance, spec tires.

Only thing I would do different (here) is in GT-2. Where I would open it up to most all of the current GT-3 cars.




L.P.

[Marco23]

In my opinion Sport-prototypes should be very perfomant and safe. I don't want to see a come back to old technology. I want only to see more links with production vehicle. For example the tires. The Lmps shouldn't have slick tires because these type of tires are too far from the type of producion vehicle. Another aspect should be considered. During the first minuts of the 2010 Spa 1000km we've seen many cars in troubles with slick tires because it has started to rain. With non-slick tires you could race in safer situation especially when you're racing under changing weather conditions (It happens very often at LM, as you know).

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Only thing I would do different (here) is in GT-2. Where I would open it up to most all of the current GT-3 cars.




L.P.

That would be my theoretically ideal. Having said that, the more manufacturers, the more difficult it is to keep entrants happy. Costs go up, and it becomes more difficult to "equalize" the cars. This is a privateer targeted class as far as I'm concerned. Keep the costs reasonable, provide at least an illusion that anyone, in any car can win.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

That would be my theoretically ideal. Having said that, the more manufacturers, the more difficult it is to keep entrants happy. Costs go up, and it becomes more difficult to "equalize" the cars. This is a privateer targeted class as far as I'm concerned. Keep the costs reasonable, provide at least an illusion that anyone, in any car can win.

Well it would just take a strong set. Equalize them and require black boxes and put a 4 year cycle on upgrades, period! Would make cost static for four years, then upgrades which had been developed in GT-1 can be passed down and the cars re-equalized.



L.P.

[Purist]

Marco, slick tires are a big part of why sports prototypes perform as well as they do.

Also, treaded tires have tread blocks, which squirm around at high speed. This makes handling much more questionable when conditions are dry. Also, the treaded tires heat up, degrade, and lose performance much more quickly than do the slicks. They're a softer compound as well. This means they cannot handle the strong lateral loads for as long, before they out and out fail. Therefore, you increase the risk of blowouts (adding danger) and substantially increase tire usage (hurt the sport's efficiency/green credentials) by going to treaded racing tires.

I think the BFGoodrich Porsche 962s used DoT legal slick racing tires, so I don't think even they tried racing on treaded tires in the dry.

[Marco23]

Ok, probably you're right on this aspect, but I wanted to show that it would be important to slow down the cars ONLY to make them closer to "real" cars. Maybe I made a wrong example, but in my opnion ACO shouldn't slow down prototypes without a reason.

[Holt]

The first thing I would do would be to ban wings or spoilers of any type.

The Delta Wing Group has proposed this amazing new design for openwheel Indycars and I think it would work extremely well for sportscars. Not the car itself but the ideas behind it.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/.../deltawing.jpg

Without draggy wings the cars will get much better fuel mileage in these eco sensitive times. Lap times will go way down while at the same time straight line speeds should stay around the same even with much less horsepower. The delta wing group expects 235mph out of the delta wing car at Indianapolis with just 325 horsepower. The cars should become less sticky and the driving should go back more into the hands of the driver.

Last but not least wings etc are useless to the automotive industry. Banning wings/spoilers etc will make manufacturers focus on efficiency in the highest degree.

LMP 1 will combine with LMP2 and form one prototype class, LMP. Engines will be limited to 4 or 6 cylinders, weight limits for LMP cars will be reduced from the 900kg range to around 550 - 600kgs

LMP cars both open and closed must now have a full size replica of the driver's seat in the passenger seat. There must be enough room in the seat for a second full grown man to sit in and buckle up and be comfortable at any time, even under race conditions. This prohibits open top cars from placing any aero devices over the passenger seat during races.

Basically I want LMP sportscars to focus on efficiency, but at a far greater level then what the ACO is doing. The key is the removal of wings. This will dramatically increase fuel mileage at Le Mans and efficiency and will put the driving back more into the hands of drivers.

I would also like to see hybrids dominate the class

[Purist]

LMPs shouldn't sound like touring cars (i.e. overgrown hair dryers). I HATE the idea of forcing in smaller, wimpy, uninspiring engines just to appease the "green" fraternity, when it's clear enough to me that an awful lot of race fans want, and even demand, the wild, crazy, ear-shattering sounds of the big 8-12 cylinder engines.

The manufacturers already focus on efficiency. They have to, so as to make the fewest pit stops possible during the endurance races.

You can't do the nearly the level of power reductions that they call for with the Delta Wing, because you can't cut the frontal area nearly as much with a two-seater. You also can't do nearly the level of weight reduction because of the safety cell requirements, and the larger dimensions required to protect the occupants in a two-seater compared with a formula car.

I suspect the audience may well turn away if you did this, Holt, because they'd have the perception that these had become 'old fashioned" cars (not hip, cool, new, or up-to-date). Notice how many kids put wings, spoilers, and air dams on their Japanese econoboxes?

Also, if LMPs lose the wings, you have to slow down EVERY other category of car that is "supposed to be" slower than the LMPs. The ACO doesn't have the jurisdiction to do that, however.