The broad sunlit uplands of next March. Yeah, really. .

[Simon Hadfield]

So, as we hurtle (plummet?) towards the end date of our participation in the European jamboree has anyone anywhere actually considered what this means for Motorsport, in particular our section of club motorsport? I am surprised that the MSA has not been seen to discuss this but it is going to affect everyone who does even the odd race in Europe.
It would appear that Carnets will be necessary and even if your car has road registration the trailer and your tools and equipment will still need control documentation.
Our licences I presume will no longer be European compatible, also British officials will, in Europe, no longer be able to have authority in any thing other than full International events.
The concept of allowing one race in Europe to count for a national championship will end I presume?
What about taxes? If your championship has every round in Europe will they want to tax your income earned in Europe? Will staff need a work permit as we used to have to get to run race cars in the USA?
If calendars are being put together now, and it would be expected that they are, why are these issues not being discussed?
Now I fully understand that if governments cannot even agree on where the Police can work and who they can talk to then our play area is a long way down the agenda but surely this is, to us at least, important and the discussion should be in the public domain?
Even to know that it is being thought about would be a start......
I would also point out that for us Brits doing several races a year in Europe the carnet costs will be spread over a few races, how many Europeans will pay for a carnet to do one race in the UK? Not quite so attractive I suspect.

It is interesting to note that at the Tunnel there appears to be very little work underway to prepare for the vast increase in Customs processes that begins in March. Maybe its all out of sight...

[zefarelly]

It's a massive sh*t sandwich. That's before you consider motorsport.

I can only hope the whole thing falls to pieces and gets canned, the status quo may not be perfect but its 100 times better than any other proposal thus far. We can negotiate as part of the same club, sitting at the same dinner table, but shouting from outside the garden gate won't get us very far.

[MGDavid]

Yes I've given it some thought, and conclude that things will revert to how they were before we were conned into joining (and yes, I am old enough to remember). Just a bit of extra admin and forms to fill in, and off we go. Of course, the anti-Brexiteers will tend to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I'm more optimistic. A lot.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Yes I've given it some thought, and conclude that things will revert to how they were before we were conned into joining (and yes, I am old enough to remember). Just a bit of extra admin and forms to fill in, and off we go. Of course, the anti-Brexiteers will tend to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I'm more optimistic. A lot.

Well said David, I fear the lack of self-confidence of much of the nation will lead to disaster.

We are a strong people, and we will prosper outside of the un-elected(by us) bureaucracy of Europe.


They need us more than we need them.

[Tel 911S]

I was competing in Europe before Schengen .
Yes , it did mean a little bit of paperwork doing carnets , but not really any problem .
And then it meant copies to be signed at every border , not just the 1 place which might be needed now .
The only problems came if the Customs at the various borders decided to go on strike , [ like if the sun shone, or if there was a Monday in the week ]. But then I could get it sorted by a quick visit to my local C & E .

Life will go on , Motorsport will continue , imaginary disasters like this is just part of project fear to try to stop us leaving the EUSSR.

[Simon Hadfield]

I'm not sure that the issue of my thread has actually been grasped.
What I'm asking is what is likely to happen and why is this not being discussed or information being given out so we can plan our lives and in some cases, businesses. If we are given a calendar in January and we don't know what licences our customers need (as an example) how does that help?
I would point out that we have had pretty much full access to European motorsport, cheaply and more or less hassle free, since we joined Europe. The concept of "going back to what we had" is simply unknown by most competitors today.
When I started in Historic racing we did indeed have carnets, and the associated costs, and could not compete outside of the UK without an International licence and a covering letter from, then, the RAC. From memory that covering letter was specific to an event, not a generic one.
Today a large number of competitors, I would venture, compete on a National A licence, many for the reason that it does not require an ECG......
So this is not "Project Fear" but a call to find out what exactly is proposed under "Project Reality".
I would suspect that for many south of London it's currently easier to get to Spa than Oulton Park on a Bank Holiday weekend, if they now need to jump through hoops that were not there before does that drive more competitors into remaining in UK based motorsport?
Whatever the reality must surely be that external motorsport will become more expensive.
I would also add that way back then the carnet principle was well established and most of the kinks had been worked out over the many years that it had been running. I simply do not believe that that level of competence will magic into being overnight on one day in March next year. So would it not be prudent to suggest to organisers that they don't schedule European races until well into the season? Let the real hauliers and businesses work though the car park on the M20 first?

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

I was competing in Europe before Schengen .
Yes , it did mean a little bit of paperwork doing carnets , but not really any problem .
And then it meant copies to be signed at every border , not just the 1 place which might be needed now .
The only problems came if the Customs at the various borders decided to go on strike , [ like if the sun shone, or if there was a Monday in the week ]. But then I could get it sorted by a quick visit to my local C & E .

Life will go on , Motorsport will continue , imaginary disasters like this is just part of project fear to try to stop us leaving the EUSSR.

sorry, but You have that wrong,
the Schengen Treaty (an EU subgroup, which the UK never joined, hence the current passport controls between UK and France etc) concerns itself with free travel, border controls, and the need or the lack of need of passport checks for travel between Schengen states.

The Schengen Treaty does not cover customs, tariffs and trade law.

Failing an EU exit agreement (and this is by now a likely scenario) UK / EU relations will go to WTO terms. This curently means a 10 % import tax on cars + VAT (7% blanket rate if car is proven older than 30 years). Unless You have a carnet or valid UK road registration and / or can convince EU authorities that the car is in EU only temporary and will be reexported, a bond could be required to guarrantee this.
This by the way can be checked anywhere in the EU and cars/trucks can be searched with no search warrant within a certain distance from the borders (Schleierfahndung). I doubt this will happen in the first 12 months after the Brexit, mainly because there are bigger fish to fry, but who knows.

Interesting aspect: value of many historic racing cars is now so high that intentionally smuggling one into the EU (in other word, a sale withut paying import taxes) could have very severe consequences.

Things used to be different regarding taxes and tarriffs 30 years ago, more lax. I would not count on that in future.

Simons questions are extremely valid especially in the longer term.

And, no, I am not trying to scare anybody, just giving information, that can easily be checked by googling.

As far as I am concerned UK decided to leave EU, triggered the relevant process, so be it. No point whatsoever trying to stop somebody who is keen on leaving, just get it over with.

RuE

[coppice]

Originally Posted by bauble

Well said David, I fear the lack of self-confidence of much of the nation will lead to disaster.

We are a strong people, and we will prosper outside of the un-elected(by us) bureaucracy of Europe.


They need us more than we need them.

I don't want to throw petrol on the fire but the 'them and us ' comment reminds me of the (possibly apocryphal ) newspaper headline -'Fog closes channel ports - Europe cut off'.



I voted to remain of course and ..err....remain convinced that the leave vote was the biggest mistake we have ever made. But given our tendency to take such an absurdly Anglocentric view of the world I was hardly surprised .

[delta]

This is all way to heavy going for me. I shall just rock up to a border in Delta truck and shrug my shoulders. If I get turned back then I shall retire ,move to NZ and live happy ever after. Sorry Simon.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by coppice

I don't want to throw petrol on the fire but the 'them and us ' comment reminds me of the (possibly apocryphal ) newspaper headline -'Fog closes channel ports - Europe cut off'.

I voted to remain of course and ..err....remain convinced that the leave vote was the biggest mistake we have ever made. But given our tendency to take such an absurdly Anglocentric view of the world I was hardly surprised .

What is that odd flag under your ID, and how did you get to vote anyway?

[grantp]

Originally Posted by delta

This is all way to heavy going for me. I shall just rock up to a border in Delta truck and shrug my shoulders. If I get turned back then I shall retire ,move to NZ and live happy ever after. Sorry Simon.

Hmm.


Not sure you can move to New Zealand these days. If you can it seems they are unwilling to let anyone buy a house. Maybe renting is an option still?


https://qz.com/1299734/foreigners-ar...e-law-changes/


Still, I do have a lot of sympathy with the sentiment behind your idea Iain!

[MGDavid]

Simon,
I postulate that you'll download a carnet blank off the net, fill it in, present it at port for checking & stamping, and proceed. Common sense says Nat A drivers should be planning to upgrade to International C.
Can you please remind me of the last legislative change in motorsport that did not incur an increase in costs - nothing new there!
Any idea how many of the British drivers in the Spa 6 hours would be put off by a bit of admin and a few hundred quid extra?
What is done currently when Brits go and race their cars outside of the EU? (e.g. FJ world tour)?

[Simon Hadfield]

But that's the point, you postulate but we don't know. How can you plan by guessing? How does an entire industry, which we are often told is large and important, find itself completely cut off from real, proper facts?
If they are not knowable then we should be told that too, at least we would understand that forward planning simply would not be possible.

And surely the carnet is underpinned by a bond, who undertakes to underwrite that?

[Geraint Owen]

Simon is right to ask these questions, and the trouble with any of these discussions is that they end up being dominated by those who want to reverse the decision and those who do not. The future planning for the country has been wrecked by this, and you only need to read from the top of this forum to see hear is no different.

Two years ago I went to Monza with a single seater which has a V5C. I went through non-EU Switzerland. The route is easier. I had to leave the EU and return...the same on the way back. I stopped at customs on the way south going into Switzerland. A guy came and said hi. He said wait there. 5 minutes later his boss came out of the office and asked if it was a Ferrari. When I said no, he left. He was only interested in Ferraris. The border chap then said there was no reason for us to have stopped and he was only trying to cheer his boss up!

As I understand it you can do events in Switzerland with a National A licence. Can anyone confirm? If so, then why should it be any different for the UK. There should be recognition of the licences around Europe. If you look in the Blue book then it does mention "EU and comparable countries". where Nat A licences are valid. I would hope that the MSA are on top of this, rather than focusing on some pet academy project that their mag is full of.

The issue of movement of single seaters/trailers/tools etc must surely be sorted. The caravan owners will have the same issue one assumes

[grantp]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Simon,
I postulate that you'll download a carnet blank off the net, fill it in, present it at port for checking & stamping, and proceed. Common sense says Nat A drivers should be planning to upgrade to International C.
Can you please remind me of the last legislative change in motorsport that did not incur an increase in costs - nothing new there!
Any idea how many of the British drivers in the Spa 6 hours would be put off by a bit of admin and a few hundred quid extra?
What is done currently when Brits go and race their cars outside of the EU? (e.g. FJ world tour)?

Things could get interesting as they were "in the old days".


On my way to a certain race in the south of France back in the carnet loving 70s I arrived on the other side of the channel and as I headed for the carnet stamping office noticed the March transporter parked up.



Greeted the driver in passing and he informed us that he had been there for 2 days and the French customs had been through everything he was transporting down to every nut and bolt drawer. We had the documents signed promptly and left him to it.


Returning a week or so later, after a test day diversion on the return journey, I came upon the Frank Williams truck still waiting to get on a ferry. Its driver told me he had been stuck there for a couple of days due to some paperwork anomalies - something along the lines that on the way out they had inadvertently presented for signature a couple of carnets for engines that they did not actually have with them on the trip. On the return the customs people decided they wanted to see the engines ... and as he could not produce them it was decided that they must have been imported and sold so payment was due for the duty.


All good fun I suppose.



Mind you that was at a time when France in particular seemed especially keen to ensure that pertinent taxes were being collected and local manufacturing was protected.



Nothing wrong with that. The UK was doing the same thing to protect, for example, British Leyland.


Hmm.


Maybe, if BMW take fright about whatever Brexit turns out to be we could buy MINI back from them for a quid.


Rebrand it Triumph?

[Mike Bell]

I’m sure there’s going to be new challenges to face when crossing borders- or old challenges revisited. I was also around when we had to do all the carnet stuff at every border.....

Regarding movement of goods, my main concern though is whether the channel ports will be able to cope with any additional bureaucracy foisted upon us. I can see EuroTunnel, Calais, Dunkirk and Dover really struggling (more than now) if there are more formalities to be carried out when handling commercial traffic and their loads. It’s bad enough at Dunkirk now, with check in, two separate passport controls and two customs searches before you get near a ship! Maybe Portsmouth and Harwich would be less affected due to their much smaller throughput in comparison.

Regarding competing in Europe, it would be good to know that the MSA are on the case regarding any possible change in licence requirements or U.K. Organiser red tape. I’m not holding my breath though.... Main problem seems to be that our government really have no idea of what will happen in the event of ‘no deal’, so not much hope for anyone else.

As for ‘moving to NZ’, I would imagine the red tape to achieve that would make anything brexit lands us with insignificant in comparison! Now Portugal......

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

But that's the point, you postulate but we don't know. How can you plan by guessing? How does an entire industry, which we are often told is large and important, find itself completely cut off from real, proper facts?
If they are not knowable then we should be told that too, at least we would understand that forward planning simply would not be possible.

And surely the carnet is underpinned by a bond, who undertakes to underwrite that?

I agree that the information has not been made public , but perhaps that is because there are still desperate attempts to stop the whole thing & therefore the rules are not yet fixed .

But you could try asking Customs & Excise what might be the new rules .
I did find them quite helpful in the past , [ but who knows now ] .

I did something like 60 odd events over Europe in the 80s & 90s .
From memory , the carnets did not cost anything at all , except my time in filling in the paperwork , [ 2 copies for every border crossed ].
Also , I used to often get start money on events , [sometimes £1000 or so ] , & checked with the relevant authorities how that stood for tax , & even if it meant that I needed business insurance for my motors .
But was told then that , if I was not making a profit as a business , nothing was needed in terms of paperwork for that .

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

But that's the point, you postulate but we don't know. How can you plan by guessing? How does an entire industry, which we are often told is large and important, find itself completely cut off from real, proper facts?
If they are not knowable then we should be told that too, at least we would understand that forward planning simply would not be possible.

And surely the carnet is underpinned by a bond, who undertakes to underwrite that?

Simon, I have little doubt that Historic Racing will come within the scope of whatever regulations the UK/EU come up with, after all it is highly unlikely that the negotiators on either side will be bothered about 'your' plight. Some blanket set of rules that cover many eventualities will apply, and people will soon sort out which parts they have to bother with in regard to there individual needs. It cannot be in anybody's interest to inhibit mutual border crossing. Hopefully the MSA will be lobbying on your behalf.

[Gerard C]

Simon, to try to find an answer to your first question, I think you can compete anywhere with an international C racing licence, its the principle of international. This must be stated in appendix.
In France, I think that a national licence and a letter of agreement from our federation is enough to enter if, and only if, a race or a series is organised abroad by a French organiser.
The carnet thing, we already know it, can be simple or a hassle often depending on the custom officers.

[Alfaholic]

Regarding the processing of the paperwork at the Border, as someone who used to do the job in the days before free movement of goods around the EU was introduced and will (may?) be doing it come March, can I chuck in a couple of observations...

In the 'old' days, the carnet & import/export paperwork was produced direct to the Customs office at the Port and was cleared there in one transaction. These days, although the Carnet (or whatever is introduced) will need to be produced to the Border Force at the port, the clearance paperwork will need to be submitted separately to the central HMRC processing unit in Salford and it will be up to Border Force to complete the Carnet and let HMRC in Salford know it's OK to clear. Don't expect the immediate clearance you'd expect.

In November HMRC will be introducing a new entry clearance system in parallel with the old one, with full replacement due in March - nobody knows if it will be able to cope with the volume of declarations if the "hard" Brexit happens.

We know as much about what is going to happen as you do!

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

But that's the point, you postulate but we don't know. ...........

And surely the carnet is underpinned by a bond, who undertakes to underwrite that?

Well I at least tried to answer your question but am the first to admit I'm not the best person to answer it. Who else have you asked?
HMRC? Border Force? MSA? MIA? your local MP? the CBI? Local Chamber of Commerce? Someone else I've not thought of? Anyone?
I want to believe that someone of your standing in the industry has done more than just have a vent on a forum

Back to carnets, IIRC back in the old days the only European country requiring a bond for taking a car in was Spain, never did understand why...

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>>>>Any idea how many of the British drivers in the Spa 6 hours would be put off by a bit of admin and a few hundred quid extra?

Delta has already answered that question. If that most prolific and gentlemanly of racers CBA with the paperwork, what price the rest of the not-so-committed grid?

The whole thing is an utter shambles. However don't we have a two year transition period while we raise the cash? Isn't the real deadline March 2021 or have I misunderstood? Whatever, none of our current leaders have the faintest glimmering of an idea on what to do. How can we get to six months out and not have all our ducks in a row and be telling business how it will work?

Perhaps in July 2020 there'll be another "transition period" before full withdrawal being kicked into the long grass one or two "transition periods" down the line. As Sir Humphrey would have prevaricated: "Oh Minister, Brexit is a tremendous idea. But we need to investigate the ramifications, legal problems, security problems, that kind of thing. But a WONDERFUL idea Minister. In the fullness of time. At the appropriate juncture. "

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[coppice]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

What is that odd flag under your ID, and how did you get to vote anyway?

My mum was Australian and I am named after my Aussie uncle, whose Halifax was shot down in the war. But I am 100% Yorkshire , if pro EU . OK ?

[bauble]

Originally Posted by coppice

My mum was Australian and I am named after my Aussie uncle, whose Halifax was shot down in the war. But I am 100% Yorkshire , if pro EU . OK ?

Didn't some of them blighters shoot down your uncle?

[zefarelly]

I'm so young, I've no idea what a carnet is.

As has been stated, the stark reality is no one from the bottom feeders at the top, and down, has a bloody clue what's going on or what will happen.

We've been intergrated with Europe for 2 generations, therefore there can't be more than a handful left in the country who raced internationally before that who are still doing so. the whole world has changed immeasurably, as has the population.

Does the FIA have a stance? Will any of our Cars comply with Euro safety regulations in a year or more? Will it be a case of an HTP being a necessity and doubling in price? An FIA International license will be a minimum requirement I'm sure, not really a problem for most as we already have them.

On the bright side, the RAC can continue like the FA and ECB, in true British fashion, so FE's can be hand pumped, string back gloves and cork helmets will become derigeur again. Goodwood will soon be the safest circuit in the country

Mrs Zef is Strayan, she's recently had to renew her passport with biometric bits for her indefinite leave to remain (law changed, 3 years ago but no one said anything, we found out when she changed jobs recently) The home office offer a one day service (£850) but there's a 45 day waiting list. Bear in mind nothing's actually happened yet . . . She' currently document free, 4 weeks and still waiting,( so no summer holiday for us!) We're applying for an Aus passport for Arthur, and I'm investigating alternatives as well. Car is for sale. It's tempting to cash in on the house as well, while it's still worth something.

As Simon said, from Sussex, we can be at Spa in 6 or so hours, Dijon about 8. Last time I went to OP it took over 6, last time we visited friends in the lakes it took more than 8. We're more Brittany than Yorkshire here.