TIER 1 MOTOR RACING, DOES IT STILl EXIST WITH CREDIBIITY

[The Realist]

Historically for Tier 1 Events, a very specific criteria had to be met.

Amongst the criteria, category fields had to be a certain size, 15 from memory.
Categories had to have a set of technical rules to cover their eligibility.
National Championship series generally were at Tier 1 meetings.
The Tier 1 meetings were generally over subscribed.

I can see where our sports credibility and integrity has been eroded over time, and the dumb old spectator isn't as dumb as our sport thinks, and have already voted with their feet.

Where to from here.

[promax]

this thread is about 3 years too late

topic been debated at least 10,000 times in a number of different threads.

[The Realist]

Originally Posted by promax

this thread is about 3 years too late

topic been debated at least 10,000 times in a number of different threads.

And now 3 year later, it is back because the situation is 3 years worse.
It won't go away, but the spectators, sponsors and competitors have.

[promax]

again... nothing new

[socram]

The crucial point The Realist poses is "Where to from here?"

Nothing wrong with a new thread, dedicated to Tier 1. We know it has zero credibility but the way forward needs discussion.

It also needs some leadership and maybe suggestions from MSNZ, to get responses from the rank and file, as opposed to relying on conference remits from the clubs - as we all know that very few clubs do any effecting consulting with their members.

Tier 1 is supposed to be the pinnacle but personally, I'd rather see one or two national classes and locals building events around them, whether they be Sanctioned Series or not, rather than a lack lustre, very bland, circus philosophy, that just hasn't worked.

TRS is not a spectator draw in itself, but it is our Premier Single Seater class, which is a stepping stone for real talent. Personally I see no value in a programme of tiny grids 'just because it is Tier 1'. People have already voted with their feet so the concept is an abject failure.

Demanding Series be sanctiond to be able to run at a Tier 1 event, robbed meetings of some good classes and some good racing. Nothing that hasn't been said before but something needs to change.

[RogerH]

Although this has been discussed almost to death, I get a bit hacked off by MSNZ keeping on trying to pump up a comatosed Tier 1 and effectively ignoring the successful classic meetings such as the recent Festival at Hampton Downs.

From a quick look at the MyLaps results from the last two weekends I see that Ruapuna had 112 entrants (including 14 TLX/TL, 7 TR86 and 15 FF). At Teretonga this weekend there were evidently 73 entrants (including 13 TRX/TL, 7 TR86 and 15 FF).

Last weekend at the Classic Festival there were 222 entrants and at the event this weekend there were 224 entrants. I assume spectator numbers at the Classic Festival were significantly in excess of those at the Tier 1 events.

Is there a message in this that MSNZ seeming have the inability to assimilate?

[socram]

With 112 and 73 entrants respectively, maybe the Tier 1 need only be 1 day of a two day meeting, with the Saturday left to the host club to decide on the format?

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by socram

With 112 and 73 entrants respectively, maybe the Tier 1 need only be 1 day of a two day meeting, with the Saturday left to the host club to decide on the format?

The Tier 1 meetings are currently over two days but interestingly (using Teretonga last Sunday as an example) they had (only) 12 races over the day with races having a length of between 6 and 22 laps. On the same Sunday at the Festival at Hampton Downs they had 19 races - these were 8 laps races with the feature F5000 race being 15 laps. Perhaps at the Tier 1 events they need more variety of classes with more races each day and slightly fewer laps each race. If there are only a handful of cars in a grid a longer race can become very boring.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by RogerH

Although this has been discussed almost to death, I get a bit hacked off by MSNZ keeping on trying to pump up a comatosed Tier 1 and effectively ignoring the successful classic meetings such as the recent Festival at Hampton Downs.

From a quick look at the MyLaps results from the last two weekends I see that Ruapuna had 112 entrants (including 14 TLX/TL, 7 TR86 and 15 FF). At Teretonga this weekend there were evidently 73 entrants (including 13 TRX/TL, 7 TR86 and 15 FF).

Last weekend at the Classic Festival there were 222 entrants and at the event this weekend there were 224 entrants. I assume spectator numbers at the Classic Festival were significantly in excess of those at the Tier 1 events.

Is there a message in this that MSNZ seeming have the inability to assimilate?

Hi Rodger,

It will be no surprise to you that I agree with you sentiments, and that's the root of the problem. I was at Hampton Downs both weekends and thoroughly enjoyed myself wondering around talking to a great many people I have not seen for years. I must admit other than watching Kenny demolish the only real opposition, et al. Proctor and Ross, I did very little spectating but just enjoyed the great atmosphere that existed over two very hot weekend's.

I even saw Crunch Bennett and his young son soaking up the same atmosphere, so at least one member of the MSNZ executive is in touch with reality.

There is no one common denominator, that can explain the demise of Tier One, racing save for the WFC in 2008, however, I can point to things going wrong with Tier One as far back as the 2006/2007 season when from memory TMC turned over nearly $4 Million in revenue and under Martin Fine's management thought it was bullet proof.

The decision they took to ditch TV1 in favour of TV3 [and no I am not taking potshot's at the coverage or quality of one versus the other] was the turning point in the slippery slide to oblivion amongst all the lies and deceit that went with it.

The fact is that TV1 were paying TMC a $400,000 annual "Broadcasting Fee", plus they supplied their most senior sport producer David Turner, at no cost to TMC to direct, produce ,and edit all the footage provided by TMC's private video contractor's.

However, when TMC believed they could do better by jumping ship to TV3 under a deal brokered by TV3's then head of sale's Colin Caldwell, who also happened to be a budding Porsche Competitor, and who it is alleged eventually lost his job because of the resulting 'smelly' mess, things very quickly turned pear shape.

TMC believed that in accepting a heavily discounted 1.2 million pa. in contra advertising, for the Series broadcasting rights, would mean that they, TMC, stood to make a net profit on their TV coverage [if they could successfully sell the contra] enter one Geoff Short, who was handed the contract to sell the Contra in return for being given 20% of the advertising space to sell of to his own account.

MSNZ was equally to blame because they owned the controlling interest in TMC, but were mere dancing puppets to the grand master of the "Punch and Judy" show.

MSNZ, not TMC, had a 10 year contract with Toyota NZ and when the number of TRS fell below 15 cars they failed to hold Toyota NZ to account.

MSNZ also gave the unproven Toyota 86 class National Championship status without a season's trial and despite never fielding more than 10 cars it continue's to have MSNZ Championship Status. Even Martin Fine was against class proliferation.

I have no issue with Toyota's TRS series and applaud the opportunities they have given many of our very talented young kiwi driver like Brendon, Mitch, Rich'y, and Earl Bamber etc, the opportunity to move overseas's to further their careers. However, MSNZ failed to understand that the TRS Series is commercially un-promotable, so trying to tie other Tier One Classes to the TRS Series is commercial suicide, LIMO.

Test cricket does not need spectator's, it just need TV coverage to attract sponsorship and in turn the broadcaster to make it all pay through advertisers, Toyota NZ is big enough to do much the same as Cricket does for its TRS Series.

The rest is history, I could and should right a book about what went on but hey it wont change anything so why bother.

[socram]

I think a book from you would be a very interesting read Mark!!!! Writing it all down may not change anything, but unlike some sports books, which are no more than a boring list of statistics, I believe you actually have a story (or three) to tell - from your point of view. I stress the last part as I know that not all would agree with your point of view on all topics, but so what? Others may disagree of course, but that is what makes a really good book. Get writing.

Your post above is a very interesting one - especially as to the TV history.

Pity you didn't see much of the racing at HD as it would have been interesting to have had your view on each of the classes running, compared to what you normally see. Our final grid of the three days of weekend 2 still had over 40 cars. Every grid prior to that had 46 cars (the track limit) on the grid sheet and with reserves on stand by.

[promax]

Originally Posted by RogerH

Although this has been discussed almost to death, I get a bit hacked off by MSNZ keeping on trying to pump up a comatosed Tier 1 and effectively ignoring the successful classic meetings such as the recent Festival at Hampton Downs.

From a quick look at the MyLaps results from the last two weekends I see that Ruapuna had 112 entrants (including 14 TLX/TL, 7 TR86 and 15 FF). At Teretonga this weekend there were evidently 73 entrants (including 13 TRX/TL, 7 TR86 and 15 FF).

Last weekend at the Classic Festival there were 222 entrants and at the event this weekend there were 224 entrants. I assume spectator numbers at the Classic Festival were significantly in excess of those at the Tier 1 events.

Is there a message in this that MSNZ seeming have the inability to assimilate?

just MSNZ? V8 utes and ST also put out similar numbers (10-12).. which would suggest it's not just a MSNZ issue. spectators looking at an empty track.. seems common at this level.

[The Realist]

I think that what we have decided is that "Teir 1" is tainted beyond recovery.

Perhaps "Premier Motorsport Events" will be the thing of the future.

Hampton Downs did very well very the last 2 weekends by what I saw on my visit there. Premier Motor Racing.
Pukekohe did well with their ST and Truck Meeting last month, Premier Motor Racing.
Highlands have a big weekend coming up. Lots of promotion, overseas cars and drivers. Let's see if it is Premier Motor Racing.

Hampton Downs have the TRS this weekend. Let's compare it with the last 2 weekends and see if it qualifies as Premier Motor Racing.
tly
Ruapuna for the TRS meeting looked like an unkempt desert track, pity.
Premier Motor Racing Event?

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by promax

just MSNZ? V8 utes and ST also put out similar numbers (10-12).. which would suggest it's not just a MSNZ issue. spectators looking at an empty track.. seems common at this level.

Why I singled out MSNZ was that "their" events have the status of Tier 1 and Gold Star Championship. The problem is that it has been stated by MSNZ on many occasions that this status is only afforded to what they deem is the pinnacle of NZ motor sport.

For many reasons Tier 1 is not working and the result is that a very poor product is being held up as representative of the pinnacle of the sport. It is no wonder that there is a problem with attracting new entrants, sponsors and spectators when the sport, by inference, is saying that if you participate then you can aspire to reach this pinnacle - but the pinnacle presented is in reality nothing to get excited about.

The answer is not easy but keeping on presenting an inadequate product may be doing more harm than good. It may be better to have fewer Gold Star Championship classes rather than tarnish the credibility of the status by giving it to classes that fail to meet even MSNZ's own criteria for Championship status.

I think it needs a wholesale change in attitude at MSNZ as just massaging the status quo is not going to work any more

[promax]

Originally Posted by RogerH

Why I singled out MSNZ was that "their" events have the status of Tier 1 and Gold Star Championship. The problem is that it has been stated by MSNZ on many occasions that this status is only afforded to what they deem is the pinnacle of NZ motor sport.

For many reasons Tier 1 is not working and the result is that a very poor product is being held up as representative of the pinnacle of the sport. It is no wonder that there is a problem with attracting new entrants, sponsors and spectators when the sport, by inference, is saying that if you participate then you can aspire to reach this pinnacle - but the pinnacle presented is in reality nothing to get excited about.

The answer is not easy but keeping on presenting an inadequate product may be doing more harm than good. It may be better to have fewer Gold Star Championship classes rather than tarnish the credibility of the status by giving it to classes that fail to meet even MSNZ's own criteria for Championship status.

I think it needs a wholesale change in attitude at MSNZ as just massaging the status quo is not going to work any more

oh I totally agree with what you are saying! I think the damaged is already done at this level. I don't think there is a quick fix either. no star driver or new car/class will turn this mess around.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by promax

oh I totally agree with what you are saying! I think the damaged is already done at this level. I don't think there is a quick fix either. no star driver or new car/class will turn this mess around.

Wow Promax, for the first time ever I actually agree with you.

[Bill Brown]

We should just copy the posts from:
MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'
To refresh our memories!!
Because it sure has already been thrashed to death

[RogerH]

Agree Bill that is has been trashed to death - but maybe it needs refreshed thrashing because the answers haven't been found and the deterioration continues.
Although this forum's posters involvement in the sport is in various forms I think there is a common view that we want the sport to be vibrant and grow and there is genuine concern with the state that it is in.

[Nigel TV3]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Hi Rodger,

It will be no surprise to you that I agree with you sentiments, and that's the root of the problem. I was at Hampton Downs both weekends and thoroughly enjoyed myself wondering around talking to a great many people I have not seen for years. I must admit other than watching Kenny demolish the only real opposition, et al. Proctor and Ross, I did very little spectating but just enjoyed the great atmosphere that existed over two very hot weekend's.

I even saw Crunch Bennett and his young son soaking up the same atmosphere, so at least one member of the MSNZ executive is in touch with reality.

There is no one common denominator, that can explain the demise of Tier One, racing save for the WFC in 2008, however, I can point to things going wrong with Tier One as far back as the 2006/2007 season when from memory TMC turned over nearly $4 Million in revenue and under Martin Fine's management thought it was bullet proof.

The decision they took to ditch TV1 in favour of TV3 [and no I am not taking potshot's at the coverage or quality of one versus the other] was the turning point in the slippery slide to oblivion amongst all the lies and deceit that went with it.

The fact is that TV1 were paying TMC a $400,000 annual "Broadcasting Fee", plus they supplied their most senior sport producer David Turner, at no cost to TMC to direct, produce ,and edit all the footage provided by TMC's private video contractor's.

However, when TMC believed they could do better by jumping ship to TV3 under a deal brokered by TV3's then head of sale's Colin Caldwell, who also happened to be a budding Porsche Competitor, and who it is alleged eventually lost his job because of the resulting 'smelly' mess, things very quickly turned pear shape.

TMC believed that in accepting a heavily discounted 1.2 million pa. in contra advertising, for the Series broadcasting rights, would mean that they, TMC, stood to make a net profit on their TV coverage [if they could successfully sell the contra] enter one Geoff Short, who was handed the contract to sell the Contra in return for being given 20% of the advertising space to sell of to his own account.

MSNZ was equally to blame because they owned the controlling interest in TMC, but were mere dancing puppets to the grand master of the "Punch and Judy" show.

MSNZ, not TMC, had a 10 year contract with Toyota NZ and when the number of TRS fell below 15 cars they failed to hold Toyota NZ to account.

MSNZ also gave the unproven Toyota 86 class National Championship status without a season's trial and despite never fielding more than 10 cars it continue's to have MSNZ Championship Status. Even Martin Fine was against class proliferation.

I have no issue with Toyota's TRS series and applaud the opportunities they have given many of our very talented young kiwi driver like Brendon, Mitch, Rich'y, and Earl Bamber etc, the opportunity to move overseas's to further their careers. However, MSNZ failed to understand that the TRS Series is commercially un-promotable, so trying to tie other Tier One Classes to the TRS Series is commercial suicide, LIMO.

Test cricket does not need spectator's, it just need TV coverage to attract sponsorship and in turn the broadcaster to make it all pay through advertisers, Toyota NZ is big enough to do much the same as Cricket does for its TRS Series.

The rest is history, I could and should right a book about what went on but hey it wont change anything so why bother.

Mark, as I am still under Contract to TV3 I think it would be wise and prudent not to comment on your post, but I would like to add two facts....
1. TVNZ were never going to renew the Rights Fee paid to MSNZ/TMC, they had no option but accept the TV3 deal.
2. MSNZ/TMC still owe TV3 $100K in Production Costs for the very last NZV8 Round run by TMC.

Nigel.

[socram]

Originally Posted by Nigel TV3

2. MSNZ/TMC still owe TV3 $100K in Production Costs for the very last NZV8 Round run by TMC.

So that is where most of our excessive licence, permit and race levy fees go... Doesn't exactly endear itself to Classic racers who seem to be contributing the majority of the race levy fees and - then get zero paid coverage and support from MSNZ and have been grizzling for ages.

[atmosports]

My views on why Tier 1 motor racing has failed is that MSNZ/Promoters haven't listened to the competitors. I've been involved in 2l touring cars, F/Ford, BMW mini's, NZV8's & also been involved in the officialdom side of NZV8Utes. The cost of racing has become prohibitive to most of the people that want to compete that earn wages every week unless we can track down & maintain a lot of sponsorship that just is no longer available. Add into that the constant changing of rules/regulations & improper enforcement of them. I struggled even as an official to get the rest of the official/promoters to see what I could see which was backed up by what the competitors were saying, competitors don't care if they are all going a second a lap slower but are all saving $3k a weekend on tyres etc.

Apart from the classic racing I haven't been back to a circuit event, mainly as I've been to busy with speedway where unless you have some really bad nights a lot of the midget competitors can fund it out of what they earn, & most nights you actually get something back towards the cost of your racing. Not to mention the rules have been fairly stable for years & we run pretty much the same rules here as they do in Australia/USA.

How to fix Tier 1?? Not simple really. We do need a premier open wheel & sedan(Closed car) championship whatever they end up. Then we need full fields with close racing as the feeder categories, preferably classes that race in both island with the same/similar rules that are affordable to most people to run with minimal/no sponsorship. I honestly feel we have way too many classes & way too many events & that has diluted the amounts of competitors/officials etc & caused what we've got now, I think we need to merge classes & go back to a more allcomers/time group style of racing where we have full fields & close racing & limit the costs per weekend but restricting fuel & the amount of tyres used per weekend/season. Or else ditch all the current tier 1 classes & then any other championship that is already running with 20-30+ cars should be given the option to step up(Most won't because they are full of club races that don't want all the BS that Tier 1 has).

Just my opinions from sitting back on the sidelines & watching over the last couple of years & listening to those that have been involved or are still involved.

[Ugy]

Purely from a spectators point of view there didn't seem to be much wrong with tier1/ NZV8s and the Utes 3 odd years ago, so what happened ?

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

TMC believed that in accepting a heavily discounted 1.2 million pa. in contra advertising, for the Series broadcasting rights, would mean that they, TMC, stood to make a net profit on their TV coverage [if they could successfully sell the contra] enter one Geoff Short, who was handed the contract to sell the Contra in return for being given 20% of the advertising space to sell of to his own account.

Surely the remuneration would be 20% of the income generated, not 20% of the advertising space? (otherwise you’re creating a conflict of interest for your sales person).

What was the end result of the contra sale?
From what I’ve heard contra tends to be a fairly hard sell as there’s usually quite a few restrictions that come with it.

[Chappelli]

Also, is it just me or does there seem to be a number of situations where the hired gun appears to be “a bloke I know”?

[Bill Brown]

The first nail in the coffin was the NZST breakaway, forget the politics and who's right or wrong that split started the rot.

Going on from there the loss of GT3, Mini Challenge, Suzuki and NZ V8 utes all compounded the problem. So the summer series moved from being a series with mainly unique classes that only ran in that series to a cobbled up series with a lot of classes that can be seen elsewhere free or very cheap.

The package NZV8, TRS, GT3, Formula Ford, Mini Challenge, Suzuki and NZV8 utes all unique to the summer series was very marketable and probably the most successful series ever run in this country.

What do we have now NZV8 and ST meetings both ho hum and far from successful.

I have not included any mention of Classic Racing. I believe that they are very successful in there own right and should not be compared with current series events. Although they do bring through the gate the few dedicated petrol heads who will go to any event, they also pull from a large group of classic petrol heads who may only ever attend classic meetings.

So in my view we should compare Current with current, classics with classics, Bikes with bikes etc.

[Ugy]

Thanks for that