Did MS let RB win?

Yoong Montoya · 23 Jun 2002, 19:21 (Ref:319844)

I'm not sure whether RB beat MS fair and square today, or whether MS let RB win.

macdaddy · 23 Jun 2002, 19:25 (Ref:319847)

I've been thinking similarly...

freud · 23 Jun 2002, 19:26 (Ref:319849)

The strategy was to race till the 2nd pitstop and then just follow the order. I would say that Rubens did deserve to win today and MS didnt let him win. Though MS was prevented from attacking Rubens after 2nd pitstop, which is debatable. It gives an impression of a 'fixed' race to achieve a possible result that pleases the fans and FIA.

Sato san · 23 Jun 2002, 19:33 (Ref:319858)

I think Rubens won it through his own efforts today . The only reason that TGF caught him up after the 2nd stop was because Rubens had backed off and just kept it neat and tidy . TGF backed off too , but it isnt hard to make up 6 seconds when the leader is short shifting and running 3 seconds alap off the pace .

Full credit to Rubens , i think this will make him so much stronger.

R · 23 Jun 2002, 19:48 (Ref:319869)

Rubens pretty much said so himself in the press conference, that they had been told 10 laps from the end to "just bring the cars home". So from that point in, it could be argued TGF "let" Rubens win. Kudos to TGF for his comments in the press conference though.

J.McClane · 23 Jun 2002, 19:56 (Ref:319873)

"Did MS let RB win?"

Well no, i think it more of a case of Ferrari lettin' RB win.
You see Ferrari were in a no win situation, RB wins and IMO Shu could have very easily got past, it's another case of team orders to make Shu look good. But on the other hand if MS would have won, the A1 ring stuff all comes floodin' back.

I think Shu could have and should have won today, but Ferarri wouldn't let that happen cos of A1 and the fact that the "hearin'" is on Wednesday.

Personaly, i think the "team orders" were in RB's favour today, but this itself then brings up the question of if RB was "allowed" to win here, then why was he not "allowed" to win at the A1 ring?

Mania · 23 Jun 2002, 20:06 (Ref:319884)

Quote:

Originally posted by R
Rubens pretty much said so himself in the press conference, that they had been told 10 laps from the end to "just bring the cars home". So from that point in, it could be argued TGF "let" Rubens win. Kudos to TGF for his comments in the press conference though.

Yup. He was very fair in the press conference. Hakkinen once said that he always loved beating Schumacher because the guy hates losing and therefore it is more satisfying to beat him in a straight fight. I think Schumacher being the competitor that he is, did not like finishing 2nd but probably understood that Rubens deserved this win especially since Michael himself was one of the culprits who stole a win from Barrichelo 6 weeks ago.

neilap · 23 Jun 2002, 22:14 (Ref:319999)

Ferrari said that their drivers dont race each other. I feel RB was either waiting for the order to move over or after the order was given to hold place they both just cruised around.

Ferrari are business men they are not racers. No, I am not saying none of the team ever raced just that they do not approach F1 from a racers point of view. I would have liked to see a straight fight. Maybe after Sivlerstone.

Valve Bounce · 23 Jun 2002, 22:22 (Ref:320005)

Let's face it, the two red cars "travelling" in formation around the circuit, well ahead of competitors looked mighty impressive. Makes us wonder when the all conquering Williams will gird their loins and come out fighting.

Oh!! they did - against Renault. Oh!! OK.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

FG1 · 23 Jun 2002, 22:59 (Ref:320025)

Today's GP was the first that I have had the stomach to watch since Austria. Of course RB was allowed to win. After the 2nd stop the cars weren't racing each other but RB would have moved over if he had been told to.

They didn't really have a choice what with the FIA hearing in a few days time. But I still hope that the FIA deduct 10 points from TGF and 50 from Ferrari, but I don't suppose they will.

FG

Rambo · 24 Jun 2002, 00:30 (Ref:320055)

MS was certainly faster. He didn't move over for Rubens, but I don't think he tried to pass him. So... Rubens won it - kind of!

But I think that race result was decided before the race started, myself.

Rambo · 24 Jun 2002, 00:34 (Ref:320056)

Quote:

Originally posted by freud
The strategy was to race till the 2nd pitstop and then just follow the order. I would say that Rubens did deserve to win today and MS didnt let him win. Though MS was prevented from attacking Rubens after 2nd pitstop, which is debatable. It gives an impression of a 'fixed' race to achieve a possible result that pleases the fans and FIA.

Don't tell me you believe what Ross said? That must be a first, for you...

Liz · 24 Jun 2002, 00:52 (Ref:320061)

"Holding station" is the more traditional form of Team Orders (for those who have a history of F1 that begins before TGF) -- in fact, it was disobedience of the Ferrari order to "hold station" by Didier Pironi that caused Gilles Villeneuve's death. In 1998 the Jordan drivers were told to "hold station" as they were going to finish 1-2 and there were hardly any other cars left, and the weather was terrible.

And wasn't the decision to "hold station" the reason DC moved over for Mika in Australia -- because he inadvertently had violated that Team Order and wanted to make it right?

If we are going to concede that team orders of some kind are part of the race-rigging tradition of WWF1, notwithstanding the hearing on Wednesday, today's finish was predictable.

Nevertheless, the Speed Channel people obviously didn't beleive it would work out as they kept predicting a move-over order all during the race, or so I hear.

Jukebox · 24 Jun 2002, 01:27 (Ref:320076)

From the round, i've knew that Ferrari are gonna allow RB win and to be fair they are both on the same strategy so no one can blame anybody if Rubens encountered any mishap like last two weeks.

Well he finally gets his win

jpmontoya_fan · 24 Jun 2002, 04:41 (Ref:320119)

I think the Sect from Maranello gave to the pig of Michael Schumacher the order to let Rubinho win. MS was faster than RB and he came closing the gap with RB, and when the pig was behind the Brazilian he stayed behind.

Remember that wednesday the Mafia Team have to go to answer some questions to the FIA for the incidents in the race of Austria. So with this victory of Rubinho they have good arguments to defend themselves. Chao!

f1manoz · 24 Jun 2002, 08:33 (Ref:320205)

Rubens deserved the win as he led from start to finish. The reason they would have been told to 'hold station' is in case Schu and Rubens collided if he tried to pass, however unlikely that would have occurred, better to be safe than sorry.

And with Austria still fresh in everyones' minds, Ferrari would have been crucified if they'd done it again.

Mr V · 24 Jun 2002, 10:16 (Ref:320257)

Would MS have gone past if the team had ordered Rubens to move over? i personally don't think MS would have gone past myself! But i should imagine that it will annoy MS a little bit that he wasn't allowed this win in front of his home fans! I suspect that maybe MS would have been a little happier "giving" Rubens this win in say, Britian or USA!

Liz · 24 Jun 2002, 10:51 (Ref:320276)

The race commentators were extremely irritating last night in their continued speculation as to when and how Ferrari would force Rubens to throw the race and what would happen WHEN they did it. Unless the punishment is pretty drastic, I expect this to continue all season long.

If TGF is too frightened of RB to race him on equal terms in equal equipment, it surely reflects on his alleged superiority. If they were to race on equal terms for the rest of the season, at least we'd have a bit of fun for the rest of the season.

Red · 24 Jun 2002, 11:05 (Ref:320290)

Quote:

Originally posted by Liz
If TGF is too frightened of RB to race him on equal terms in equal equipment, it surely reflects on his alleged superiority.

Yes, that would be accurate. Now, all we have to prove now is that first "IF" and that "TOO frightened".

Valve Bounce · 24 Jun 2002, 11:32 (Ref:320305)

Quote:

Originally posted by Liz
The race commentators were extremely irritating last night in their continued speculation as to when and how Ferrari would force Rubens to throw the race and what would happen WHEN they did it.

How did you know that? :confused:

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

Maxmil · 24 Jun 2002, 11:33 (Ref:320306)

This will undoubtedly become one of those 7 page threads in due course, because we will never know the real answer. If you go to Formula 1.com and read the Lap by Lap account of the race - which is how I "watch" them - you get a pretty strong impression that, up to a point, Michael was trying to get to Rubens, and that then he gave it up. Looking at it strictly from Michael's point of view, it made no sense at all for him to get into a late dogfight with his team mate - or anyone else for that matter - for four points. Ferrari may well have "suggested" that they both cool it to save the cars, but I don't think Michael would have ever forced the issuse in any event. He probably felt the same at Austria, but the team was still obsessing then and told Rubens to back off. So, I think the European was a race where the leading driver decided that there was no point to dicing for the lead with his team mate and left him an uncontested win. Personally, I don't feel that decision detracted from the race. What was annoying, was waiting on tenterhooks to see if the team would again intervene in their ham handed way. My last point is that, given the points situation, we will probably not see the very best of Michael's driving for the rest of this season. It's too bad, but that's what you get with a dominent driver in a car thats two or three notches ahead of all the others. The fun from here on out will be to watch the others struggle to surpass the Ferraris and their drivers.

Valve Bounce · 24 Jun 2002, 12:12 (Ref:320326)

They were even speculating on the banana.

It was a done deal, if you check the lap times.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

24 Jun 2002, 13:21 (Ref:320380)

Quote:

Originally posted by Liz
in fact, it was disobedience of the Ferrari order to "hold station" by Didier Pironi that caused Gilles Villeneuve's death.

Didn't Gilles Villeneuve die due to a completely separate incident a couple of weeks after this?

f1manoz · 24 Jun 2002, 13:26 (Ref:320384)

It has been stated by various sources that Gilles was so incensed by what happened at Imola that he was not prepared to be beaten by Pironi. With only minutes to go in qualifying at Zolder, Gilles went out for one more run, trying to beat Pironi, who was on pole at the time.

As he flew around the circuit, he caught up to Jochen Mass and it would be a simply miscommunication that would somersault the Ferrari into the air, throwing out Gilles and killing him.

Whether he would have been on that banzai lap if he'd not been deceived by Piron at Imola, who knows? It's one of the millions of 'what ifs'.....

Liz · 24 Jun 2002, 16:50 (Ref:320514)

Valve, I know that because I watched the Speed Channel News on Sunday Night and it was a hot topic of conversation, right up there with NASCRAP, among the commentators, along with excerpts from the actual broadcast. It was also broadcast on our breakfast television show this morning in Toronto.