2011 Battle of the Organisers

[john ruston]

Seems people will be spoilt for choice next year with Masters,HSCC,Peter Auto all running there own meetings.Carol Spagg,Legends and Flav and Ness will work as a sub contractor with the promotors set up.Then the Frech gang who run the Dijon races and are very good.

They can't all suceed!

What to do?

[dikko]

And then there are all the mini distractions like Goodwood, Cholmondly et al...

I presume you see it as a problem (is it a problem) and you have no answer other than to see what evolution does to each?

Unless the suggestion is for all to get together to make Historic Racing strong and well organised/rationalised. Can that be possible?

The Association of Historic Racing Clubs ???????????

[terence]

That would in itself be the way for ALL of the major clubs to put their heads together and sort their different dates out,but,of course,that will never happen.
As to the economics of everything else money related,afraid my crystal ball is buggered.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Seems people will be spoilt for choice next year with Masters,HSCC,Peter Auto all running there own meetings.Carol Spagg,Legends and Flav and Ness will work as a sub contractor with the promotors set up.Then the Frech gang who run the Dijon races and are very good.

They can't all suceed!

What to do?

Don't be too exclusive, there's the CTCRC, HSCC and CSCC to name but three more, all providing Historic Motorsport at varying levels of "international" formulae.

[john ruston]

HSCC was in.
The others don't effect me ,not sure what they do,and neither of the three theme park outings are on my radar.
Point should be made I only included one club as the others are business organisations and in most cases are led by what their customers want.

[MGDavid]

lots of healthy competition bodes well for the future; I'm a firm believer in the market. Now John you wouldn't be hinting at a cartel being better would you?

[dikko]

Competition trying to out-event each other and attract the best (al la F1) and eventually have to PAY entrants???

So WHO will support the clubman? Cartel? Association?

Don't the MSA have a say in these things?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by john ruston

HSCC was in.
The others don't effect me ,not sure what they do,and neither of the three theme park outings are on my radar.
Point should be made I only included one club as the others are business organisations and in most cases are led by what their customers want.

Apologies yes, the HSCC was in your list. But there is a broader spectrum out there and some of those in CSCC/CTCRC/MGCC also run with HSCC, Masters et al.

I take it by "them park outings" you mean Silverstone Classic, Goodwood and Spa?

Having been somewhat limited this year I hope to be out more next. Obviously Masters is where I'd like to play but there may well be other opportunities for me next year so as far as I'm concerned the more, the merrier. But there is a limit to the number of entrants and it would be good to know whether entries were generally down this year.

[john ruston]

The theme park outings I referred to are Chumley and two Goodwoods.
Spa and Silverstone are in most part made up of other series with odd one off race .

As in States at present there will not be enough cars to go round.Small grids and escalating costs.

Lots of customers are needed for an open market and they are not there.

This is a European thing so what can MSA do about it as they find it difficult to do HTP's

Next year will be very interesting and I wouldn't want to invest my money in being a race promoter

The ones that carry the most clout will eat the others up.
You only have to see whats happening in Sept and Oct this year.Duplicate races and dates being squeezed

Not good

[Peter Mallett]

As to duplicate dates; Spa and Nurburgring clash again (I think), and they attract similar cars. I understand your point but maybe the only way to solve the issue is for those less well financed/promoted to be swallowed up? Yes, it would reduce choice but surely having that choice in such a limited market is the problem anyway?

A good example is the whingeing that went on about V8s and thus the opening up of the U2TC by Carol S and similar other "small class" races. Now even some of the supporters of U2TC are complaining about various cars. Just can the concept and mix em up again. Would provide bigger grids and reduce the costs/risk unless those who entered it are just pot hunting in which case they'll go off and moan somewhere else.

There's also Interseries, WSM and that European Championship for similar cars (name escapes). Wouldn't it be great if all of those cars could be seen on one grid?

What is noticeable is that more drivers appear to be entering more than one car per event. This is perhaps why ideas like Masters seem to be making headway. If an organiser is limited to one class of car then it may serve to inhibit those entrants.

The HSCC is a club that may score well in this respect too. It can cater for a wide variety of cars which means that people like you JR, or indeed Roger and of course Mike Bell, have a decent and busy weekend's sport.

In other words the "festival" type event may well be the answer. Although Donington had the "rebirth" tag, the reports suggest it was a great event for all concerned. However these type of events also possibly detract from the Silverstone Classic, which is another discussion altogether.

But the clubs themselves as I mentioned before provide championships for historic and classic cars and I don't see them folding in the near future.

[john ruston]

Think Masters will have a tough time despite the money spent.

CER to join with Group C and Carols stuff.It will be a big operation

2 litre sports car races for 70's cars all over the place.

[delta]

A couple of years ago i suggested that the Historic clubs would do well to get together and sort out dates for race meetings.I seem to remember getting shot down by a certain JR. We can have a chat about the subject on Sunday John.

[Mike Bell]

Often wonder if Masters would be better off forgetting 'Top Hat' race meetings and just doing their bigger events. In October for instance some of their customers will be racing with them in Spain the same time as the Top Hat Mallory meeting takes place. And of course GTSCC at Ledanon same w/end as well, so altogether must lead to smaller grids?

Personally will be looking for vfm even more next season- being able to race two cars at same meeting for not much more in transport and same accommodation costs will be a factor, as will be reasonable race lengths- 45 mins at least or two shorter sprints of 20-25 length. And the opportunity to race on circuits like Spa, Brands GP, Dijon etc. Then there are the 'special' events like Snet 3hr & 6hr and TB if any money left in the kitty!

So with at least one more series in which to race 2 litre 70s sports protos in 2011, the organiser that gets my cash is going to need to meet the above criteria as well. If CER join up with Carol & Gp C they have the potential for some great meetings.......

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Often wonder if Masters would be better off forgetting 'Top Hat' race meetings and just doing their bigger events. In October for instance some of their customers will be racing with them in Spain the same time as the Top Hat Mallory meeting takes place. And of course GTSCC at Ledanon same w/end as well, so altogether must lead to smaller grids?

In fairness this is where they got the biggest support initially so whilst it would be a shame to drop it, perhaps it is time for Top Hat to return to the realms of the club event that it initially was.

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Personally will be looking for vfm even more next season- being able to race two cars at same meeting for not much more in transport and same accommodation costs will be a factor, as will be reasonable race lengths- 45 mins at least or two shorter sprints of 20-25 length. And the opportunity to race on circuits like Spa, Brands GP, Dijon etc. Then there are the 'special' events like Snet 3hr & 6hr and TB if any money left in the kitty!

This is the point I was making when I mentioned you and the others. Outfits like Masters/HSCC etc. do provide that capability, whether it's more "vfm" though, is down to you.

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

So with at least one more series in which to race 2 litre 70s sports protos in 2011, the organiser that gets my cash is going to need to meet the above criteria as well. If CER join up with Carol & Gp C they have the potential for some great meetings.......

Well surely if the CER etc. join up with Carol, its doing what I said and reducing the number of organisers. Again perhaps that's a good thing?

[Mike Bell]

You are probably right about Top Hat, Peter. Seems to be stuck in the middle a bit- maybe an attempt to get bigger grids? At the end of the day, if the meetings do not make a profit (and have nothing to suggest they do or don't) can they continue?

[john ruston]

Carol is just a sub contractor to main promoter not join.Equally could be Legends or Flav/Ness.

Can't remember being the one who shot Iain down but seem to remember I thought number of events need to be pruned.It's not going to happen nor has it happened.

We more or less have a plan for 2011 but will have to miss some important meetings due to clashes.

[Peter Mallett]

Ah now you raise a question. Seeing as, to paraphrase you, this is just a grey haired hobby, what does 'important' mean?

Mike, correct me if I'm wrong but Top Hat was the for runner to all the App K touring car 'endurance' races wasn't it?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Mike, correct me if I'm wrong but Top Hat was the for runner to all the App K touring car 'endurance' races wasn't it?

Before my time Peter- only started this racing lark in 2007 (Late developer)! But I think it was, and with Cloth Cap for sports / GTs?

[simon drabble]

Top Hat was indeed established by Julius Thurgood as a series of 1 hour races and it was very good. Cloth Cap appeared later. I believe they still have a place and if I had an eligible car I would race with them. Pity they do 40 minute races as opposed to 1 hour as before.
I think the market is becoming more binary with UK clubbies (such as myself) looking more to HSCC etc to satisfy our male menopause whilst those with more serious budgets gravitate to the pan european series

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Ah now you raise a question. Seeing as, to paraphrase you, this is just a grey haired hobby, what does 'important' mean?

"Important", to me, is the race meeting I'm entered in!

[morninggents]

But there is a limit to the number of entrants and it would be good to know whether entries were generally down this year.[/QUOTE]

I think the HSCC has some series up and some down but overall is slightly down on last year. I'm pleased to say that the series I'm involved with, HSCC/HRSR Historic Touring Cars, is up to an average of 30.1 entries this year compared to 23.7 last year which is a 27% increase. It also compares well against our best year in recent years, 2005, when entries averaged 26.5.

I think the value for money aspect is the most important as the majority of us are by no means in the 'wealthy' category and HSCC caters for us extremely well. This year we had quality meetings at early Silverstone, Brands Superprix and Oulton park Gold Cup. We had double headers at Snetterton, Mallory and Croft and the Oulton race was a 40 minute optional 2 driver race. I'm sure the Silverstone finals race on 9th October will have pretty full grids to round off the season.

Other categories within HSCC such as the Guards series are so well subscribed that there is often 2 races.

[john ruston]

I happen to think that some meetings/races are more important than the mundane ones.
Among those being important to us would be for example the HSCC 3 Hr meeting,most Guards rounds,CER and the very odd Pre War race.Unfortunately Guards clash with a few European races next year.The final race this year clashes with Ricard CER.
HSCC are the only club we are involved with and offer a better package than most other promoters.I know nothing about Tin Tops ,Historic or otherwise,as havn't been involved with them since BSCC 1975.Until this year it seemed the Masters Series was a demolition Derby with some very odd cars and U2LTC was like an old Carol Spag series.That's all gone to pot after watching the race at Dijon with both being dodgem cars jobs.
Its only old men playing with bags of bolts.Not that important.
Note that somewhere on here it's reported that AH 3000's can give 300 BHP with development.What a waste of time effort and money.Supposed to be racing Historic Cars.

[zefarelly]

I'm still at a loss as whats sensible for me to do . . . current thinking is mothball the Cortina and rebuild a decent club spec tin top, I've 'found' something I rather like thats looking like the white kind of thing for me to do.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Don't be too exclusive, there's the CTCRC, HSCC and CSCC to name but three more, all providing Historic Motorsport at varying levels of "international" formulae.

To be fair, I'm not sure that the CSCC (despite the name) really thinks of itself as a true Classic or Historic race club - it runs a couple of series for older cars (Swinging Sixties & Classic K) but only one of those (on purpose) has strict regs. The Tin Tops, Future Classics & Magnificent Sevens series are all for cars of all ages.

[esper]

I am ready to discuss 300hp Healeys at the Spa 6h, (300 horses!!!! 300 little ponies)
I hope the battle of the organisers will concentrate on quality of grids and reasonable prices per minute track time ! I am after all going for quality and honnest racing, a weekend with nice people and nice cars , and then a good price or.......... is this way to dutch?