Is the Cosworth engine useless?

[csirl]

Looking at last seasons results, you'll see that the 3 x Cosworth teams occupy 3 of the last 4 places in the constructors championship. Williams, who are a vastly experienced and competent outfit are the worst of the established teams by a considerable margin. The race pace of the 2 new teams using the Cosworth is considerably worse than the new team using a Renault engine. This cannot be purely coincidental. Makes you think whether Marussia and HRT would be a lot closer to the pack if they had any other engine and so would have a better chance of survival long term.

Why are the Cosworth teams so off the pace? Does the engine need to be re-benchmarked?

[Hawkwood]

I honestly have no idea about engine stats, but what I do know is that when the three teams using your engines all produce cars that are chronically short on downforce then they won't go anywhere quickly, regardless of engine.
That can be seen by the fact that Caterham had the championship winning engine in the back of their car yet still finished level with HRT and Marussia.

We'll just have to wait and see what Williams can do with the Renault engine this year (doesn't look good so far though).

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by csirl

This cannot be purely coincidental.

It can. Williams have been disappointing for quite a few years now. Only hope and knowledge of what they could do in the past keeps us thinking they should somehow be better. The 3 new teams all had it, but Caterham, the best of the three so far, have jumped ship and if they improve, it won't necessarily be because of the engine.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Yeh I agree with BR's philosophy.

The engines are equalised - there's really not much in them from what I can see.

Red Bull are using the same engine as Caterham, yet I guarentee we won't see Caterham becoming regular points scorers all of a sudden.

Selby

[Marbot]

All of the engines have pros and cons. The Renault engine isn't the most powerful, but it is the most frugal, etc.

The main reason for the likes of HRT and Marussia being off the pace is solely for aerodynamic reasons. No way is the Cosworth engine 4 or 5 seconds off the pace. If you had put a Cosworth engine in last seasons Red Bull car, it would have won races.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

All of the engines have pros and cons. The Renault engine isn't the most powerful, but it is the most frugal, etc.

The main reason for the likes of HRT and Marussia being off the pace is solely for aerodynamic reasons. No way is the Cosworth engine 4 or 5 seconds off the pace. If you had put a Cosworth engine in last seasons Red Bull car, it would have won races.

Correct, no doubt in my mind that what you say is accurate...

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Marbot

All of the engines have pros and cons. The Renault engine isn't the most powerful, but it is the most frugal, etc.

The main reason for the likes of HRT and Marussia being off the pace is solely for aerodynamic reasons. No way is the Cosworth engine 4 or 5 seconds off the pace. If you had put a Cosworth engine in last seasons Red Bull car, it would have won races.

But could you have packaged the Cossie in an RBR, or could they have developed the Exhaust blowing engine management package and maintained performance and reliability?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

But could you have packaged the Cossie in an RBR, or could they have developed the Exhaust blowing engine management package and maintained performance and reliability?

Probably not. But it would still have seen the RBR car getting a good number of podiums and the odd win here or there.

[knighty]

Williams did recently state that last years cars aero was so bad that the engine often over heated and lost power as a consequence........from what I read most of the cosworth problems are drivability related, I think the difference between the front running engines is they have a good balance of power, economy and drivability..........F1 engines do not spend all the time at max power hence the mid range power (drivability) then becomes very important.

[Bononi]

I think Ferrari engines wouldn't be very different in those cars.

[JeremySmith]

And that is the point..I believe that the Cosworth put into a good chassis would win races...

[Born Racer]

Wasn't the Cosworths considered the most powerful at the end of their last tenure in F1?

[JeremySmith]

I am not sure about that? maybe Mr Marbot can shed some light on the subject?

I do remember that the Cosworth was able to handle 21,000 RPM!! Staggering isn't it..

Williams should have stayed with Cosworth IMO....

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

And that is the point..I believe that the Cosworth put into a good chassis would win races...

.. and yet none of the top teams is lining up to use their subsidised engines??!!

[Flavio Galtieri]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the engine per se.

I believe you'll find it's a mapping issue, I know they didn't seem to have an off throttle blowing map and that must have cost a lot of time. Also the other manufacturers and top teams spend a lot of resources tailoring the engine maps to the chassis dynamics. For example RBR's two lap Q1 qualifying map has been devastating in the last couple of years.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

I don't think there's anything wrong with the engine per se.

I believe you'll find it's a mapping issue, I know they didn't seem to have an off throttle blowing map and that must have cost a lot of time. Also the other manufacturers and top teams spend a lot of resources tailoring the engine maps to the chassis dynamics. For example RBR's two lap Q1 qualifying map has been devastating in the last couple of years.

The Motec system that was running in club racing could have arranged off throttle blowing 15 years ago - could do anti-lag, and traction control through wheel speed sensors. Would hope that they who are getting millions could run to off throttle blowing!

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by wnut

The Motec system that was running in club racing could have arranged off throttle blowing 15 years ago - could do anti-lag, and traction control through wheel speed sensors. Would hope that they who are getting millions could run to off throttle blowing!

Blimey!

With all those clever people on the teams' payroll you'd have thought someone would have worked that out!

You should tell them, earn yourself a nice little commission.

[Marbot]

I think that Cosworth were the first F1 engine supplier to break the 20,000 rpm barrier, when they bench tested their V8 engine back in December 2005.

Perhaps the main reason that the likes of Williams have 'jumped ship' could be that they know Cosworth has no plans to make a turbo V6, and it would be better for them to get acquainted with a new engine supplier in the meantime.

PURE recently stated that only themselves, Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes were currently designing and building V6 engines.

[höller]

Marbot: I wouldn´t overrate Mr. Pollocks remarks in that point at it is obvious his wishful thinking to remain the sole independent supplier...

No Cosworth engine was basically worse tha other engines. Both times, the engine quality was not the main point for the Williams`divorce.

Indeed, it could be they have given up their plans to finish their V6 Turbo because of the lack of a RRA:

http://www.itv.com/formula1/news/201...hallenge-4467/

Additionally, it has become deadly silent around their Turbo project as the last news were delivered month ago. Well, admittedly, I always had a soft spot for the company, so if anyone knows better, please let us know immediately!! I would be a shame if they would leave.

Plus, remember their first V6 25 years ago, which wasn´t a bad engine at all, despite their lack of hp in the beginning. Cosworth focused on efficiency and driveability instead of sheer power, which turned out to be the right way at the end of ´87 season with its limit of 195. (It would have been very interesting to see how they would have competed in 1988, should have been at least Nr. 2 behind Mc Laren-Honda).So, they know how to do it and as the situation in 2014 will be similar, all they should need is a competitive chassis.