Indy from CART Perspective

[Snrub]

Mods: No moving this, it's quiet relavent!

As a result of the recent german race, I started watching Indy on the weekend and ended up watching the whole thing. I was looking to compare the quality of racing, competition, entertainment. Traditionally many including myself have held CART in higher regard in no small part because of the quality of racing. Here's the problem: Indy had pretty good racing! It's not fair to make fun of the IRL in this respect. The scary part is that CART's recent oval paled in comparison to Indy. Another problem, it took more skill to drive Indy! This is very bad news indeed.

I know most of you don't like this stuff, but this is something that must change if CART is to survive. It won't matter if CART runs out of money if the product is not top notch.

Thoughts?

[Jay]

I didn't watch Indy, was the racing better than Germany? They're similar tracks in that you never lift your foot off the throttle. Weren't there a lot of crashes at indy too though?

Watch Milwaukee and see what that's like.

[KC]

Indy requires the driver to downshift for the turns. It used to be flat out but the track was changed to a rectangle to slow the cars back when CART cars were exceeding 245 mph on the straights.

The only reason why Lausitz was flat out is that every car had twice as much downforce as needed because they ran their Brands Hatch aero package at both circuits. CART needs to go ahead and let them run separate aero packages next year. Lausitz was exciting at the cost of Brands being boring.

Indy had its usual drama, but it also was not as exciting as Lausitz. It was just about impossible to overtake the leader because of the turbulence. The IRL package is fairly even, epsecially if you are running something other than a Chevy. It does produce pretty good races at most venues, but with the inclusion of the new manufacturers I think that the (engine) arms race will once again take over. It appears that Toyota has a strong package.

[EBTM]

With all due respect, I didn't see any exciting thing as Dominguez and Bourdais trying to overtake each other... so I think Lausitz had more tension.

Take the name out of the Indy 500, and the race was not that exciting.

[Jay]

unless you like crashes...

[evo]

KC, the track configuaration at Indy has always been the same 2.5 mile long rectangle.

[KC]

The track was changed after the Penske's ran the famous "409" pushrod motor and the original track apron was removed and the new apron was moved up the track. While the track still apears as the same shape the racing line is vastly changed. In the past the turns where taken as one long sweeping corner by using the lower apron as part of the corner entry. When the apron was removed, it forced the drivers to square off the corners more and changed the racing line around the circuit. I remember the Penske's going over 235 mph in the corners the year they ran the pushrod engine. For insurance reasons the Speedway did not release accurate top speed numbers but it was believed the Penskes were making around 250+ mph in the draft on the straights. You could see it on Emmo's face that he was glad that run was over on the podium.

[crazytrain]

I watched a good portion of the race (out of curiosity) and noticed a few things right away. Why were so many people spinning out on yellow flags? Near the beggining there were tons of yellow after yellow after yellow flags. Another thing I noticed was a crash in the wall can't remember who but the top portion of the cars' "tub" cracked! Was this by design? Do Paul Page and Scott Goodyear get paid for the amount of times they mention that GM's engine is s**t and low on power, and Hornish is the best thing since sliced bread considering he's driving a GM....

[macdaddy]

I was agreeing with Evo, but it seems like KC knows what he's talking about re: track redesign. What surprises me is that it was obviously not well-publicized.

[Crash Test]

Jay- you seem to know a lot about the crashes.... but correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe CART drivers crashed there too when they raced there. Shock horror.

[Jay]

It's not the drivers, but the cars. Anyway, my point which I thought would have been clear was simply that there are a lot more crashes in IRL races, even when compared to Cart's oval races.

[JohnSSC]

Having cut my racing teeth watching USAC, and therefore Indy, I think we have to "appreciate the differences." The downforce package that keeps the IRL cars so even also makes passing difficult. The power advantage that CART cars have (no longer over each other) makes oval racing for them a bit different.

I think the difficulty with this thread is making a judgement on the level of racing that goes on within each series based on our perception of what we see on TV. Further, how can you compare Lausitz to Indy? Look at the differences between those two tracks. Shape, length, elevation of banking all are major ingredients to how the cars are set up, and therefore how closely they can "race" each other.

Take road courses for example. If you watch an F1 race at Spa, and then the same cars at the Hungaroring, the "racing" is much different. And that is within the same series.

If we are going to objectively evaluate the merits of CART and the IRL (and God knows how many times that has happened here - oops! I did say objectively - maybe not so many!) then you have to look at the series - not just a random track for each one.

Indy is a shrine. I hope that some day the best oval racers in the world will race there again - all of them. I am so tired of the bickering between series. All that is being accomplished is that in the public's mind when you ask: "Who won at Indy?" A growing majority think you mean the Brickyard 400. Every race since the "split" tarnishes the image of a track where giants once drove. The Vuckovich's, Unsers, Mears, Donohue, Hill, Fittipaldi, Johncock, Mansell, Andretti's, Foyt, Rutherford and so many whose names I am ashamed to know little about on into a great past.

And that my friends is a crying shame.

[evo]

Yep, KC is correct. I completely forgot about the track apron they used to have. You used to see guys putting all four wheels below the yellow line on qualifying runs. I think Mario actually got penalised for that one year. Then they put the warm up lanes in. I believe that was Rick Mears' idea, and in fact he said when the car was set up well, he couldn't drive down on the apron if he wanted to be fast. So if the car's setup was good, the track is the same...

But KC is right

[gttouring]

all in all it was a pretty good indy- the field was the great cast of top scale pilots as we are used to, and even sarah fisher looked like she belongs (she has for a while, but nothing special was made of it) Mechanical woes and what have you it was a good one, Tora takagi charging up, The penske guys alway do well no matter who they are- the last few laps were dull Gil just ran away with it, that restart good lord was he on it! Sadly though vasser was out and CART guys? they all went to IRL now I could n't even remember who was in what series anymore.

[racer69]

Originally posted by Jay
It's not the drivers, but the cars.

The cars cause the accidents? The only accident at Indy caused by mechanical failure was Sarah Fisher's.


The warm-up lanes were also partly introduced due to the carnage of 1992 weren't they?

[KC]

One thing that just about every CART driver has noticed when they first drive the IRL car is the weight at the rear of the car. The spec gearbox for the IRL is a much larger and heavier unit than the gearboxes built by Lola and Reynard. Couple this with the low tire pressures run at Indy and you get a car that can be squirelly to drive at lower speeds. It was easy to see when Dixon spun just trying to keep his tires warm.

The IRL machines do not benefit from the years and years of development that has gone into Lola and Reynard chassis. GForce and Dallara are competent chassis makers, but oval racing has not been their discipline like it has been the established makes in CART.

[Crash Test]

Q- the day looked a lot like 1992, was it particularly cold at the track? Don't forget Kenny Brack also lost it while warming up tyres, and it is not as if Brack and Dixon are inexperienced...

[Snrub]

The racing in Germany was not "great". If it was then Indy was the best race ever. (which it wasn't) Both European races stunk by CART standards.

I think a lot of the replies have emphasized a big problem - many of us are not seeing the racing problems of CART.

The IRL is now putting on some better races than CART! It's requiring more driver input and the driver has more say in the result. How can we fix this? (if you indeed agree with me)

[Crash Test]

I probably do agree with you.

I still think the old races at Fontana and Michigan with the Handford devices which had 50 odd passes for the lead were some of the best races ever. Flat chat, 220mph, wheel to wheel, awesome stuff.

But CART seems to be going to some god awful layouts. Of course the Indy track at Brands wouldnt produce overtaking. Miami, Denver et al, shocking circuits with little thought gone into them... surely the tracks should be able to get their surfaces right!

[mac]

They are some of the ugliest open-wheelers I have ever seen.

Indy wasn't great. OK, but no different than any other oval race. For great portions of it (particularly the unnecessarily extended yellows), I was quite bored.

Also, I wonder what the all American Tony George thought of the all Brazilian podium.

[Tim Northcutt]

Note for the Record:

Indy has Always been a rectangel with four turns of 1/4 mile long each, two short chutes (1/8 mile long) between 1 & 2 (south) and 3&4 North) and two straightaways 5/8 mile long each...no changes in 87 years...other than the surface going from brick to asphalt and tons of seats.....
I should know...I live here and have been going to the 500 since 1967, when I was 9 years old...

Lautsring is a tri-oval and the straights were too short to facilitate passing....

I like both series for wehat they offer....the race last Sunday was a good one...can't wait for the Milwaukee Mile under the lights this weekend!!!!

You'll see lots of passing there...it also is a real oval...

[Omega99]

I know the Milwaukee Mile is one of my favorite ovals in racing... Indy, or what I saw of it, was pretty good. But, it makes it more difficult to care when it's a series that you don't follow, with drivers that you have no attachment to. And I still say the IRL cars are ugly.

[Tim Northcutt]

Note to All on Indy Track Changes:

1. The "Apron" was in reality an accelleration lane for exiting the pits at the south end of the track and a decelleration lane for entering it from the north end....
Drivers did use this portion of the track when going through the corners, but that was dangerous in the eyes of the IMS officials and rightly so....despite their urging drivers to stay bavoe the yellow line, many ignored the pleas...Mario even said, "If you don't want me to drive on it, don't pave it..."

The drivers may have considered the Apron as the "Racing Line," but officials never did, and in fact did penalize Mario for driving one it at racing speeds...

2. To improve the safety factor, the new pit entrance and exit lanes were created to establish distance between cars in "the racing line' and those accelerating to get up to speed, and the "Apron" was removed...they even put in "rumble strips" below the yellow line on the thin strip of pavement to ensure that their rule would be obvserved..

However, despite these changes...the yellow line was not moved up the track by the IMS officials...they just changed the acceleration lane configuration and eliminated the Apron to ensure that drivers would in fact drive the race track's intended "racing line" ...which is and has always been above the Yellow line...