Restoration/Rebuilds and Associated Problems with Eligibility

[p261brm]

Restoration/Rebuilds and Associated Problems with Eligibility

A follow on from What would you do with this;[QUOTE=john ruston[;2747864]
Another thread?
What should you race?
Got my Chobham Armour reinforced waistcoat on so here goes; To ensure the safety aspect particularly in historic racing then due consideration of the mechanical components are as important as that given to the chassis/suspension group, otherwise reliability will suffer, and the resultant acrimony towards the guilty competitor on whose oil his/her fellow racers pirouetted on. Improvement through later technology in materials and methods increase the reliability and also usually result in an increase of performance, and a driver/owner is not human [or a racer] if he/she does not utilize the increase; Hardly a ‘just as it was in period gov’ statement to appease the scrutineer’s.
Two recent close involvements’s to illustrate the point, a dispute as to what engine the car raced with in period, and where the end result was some doubt as to the entire cars’ eligibility to compete in a particular race series. In the other is a car that had some influence on my life in the pit lane, in period, if not the bar! After repatriation from the USA, the car had competed at the first LMC and resulted in the FIA ‘papers’ being withdrawn due to irregularities, I was asked to inspect and confirm where possible, it was as it raced in period, and as it has been explained to me this meant compete in a full International event; to the best of my knowledge, viz. The British Grand Prix sports car support race 15th July 1967, where a creditable 10th the result against the likes of GT 40’s etc., incidentally the driver who won the event was later to become one of the ‘influence’s’ in life. This was probably the last full International event an E competed in, as further Group 4 event applications were turned down, 109% rule probably. There may have been later events but the F2 races at the ‘Palace’, Thruxton etc were International for the main event and National for support races. The engine as fitted to the car on inspection was a 4-2 so a big No No there, and I agree, and wide angle heads were not allowed either, only on the lightweights [12cars originally], should be 3-8 bored to the maximum obtained as standard available from the cars manufacturer, plus .060 if memory serves. This is where I come to blows with the present regulations. The brakes were Girling CR calipers and solid disc’s at the front, and Mk 10 calipers and solid discs rear, and bronze bushed front suspension, solid mounted and rose jointed suspension at the rear, the rear suspension as it had been when I last saw the car in1969, so why not now?. Most of the similar cars in period were all so equipped. How we allow vented discs on to-days similar ‘period cars’ I am at a loss. As raced in period car should be just that, the real gem’s of the car world such as the 1937 Adler Super Trumpf in Mr. Turner’s thread left for prosperity.

[john ruston]

Can't agree on Adler but do understand and agree on the remainder of the discourse.The Adler will stand in a corner of a fancy museum and nobody will see it move under its own power which was the whole idea of building the thing in the first place.It's irrelevant if it races or not!
This HTP thing is a nonsense when perfectly correct cars are questioned and others that are blatantly wrong get papers.
Seems that observation or word of mouth from unimpeachable sources do not mean much and quite why the people who pay for this stuff are the ones getting screwed defeats me.Thats probably another thread.

The only way people will see the Peter Neumark Jag,Le Mans Riley MPH,and many more cars race is if someone pays lots of dosh to build them.
The rivet counters and their ilk then moan about original chassis etc but if they are the SAME as original I personally have no problem.It's the iffy E Types and other things in other classes that raise ones eyebrows but does it really matter as its only us old people (and some not so old)wasting money on old bags of bolts(and some new bolts)

We have covered the subject before but with the latest increases in performance think we should address the subject again.
People wonder why there are less cars racing.Here's one good reason and the second financial downturn is yet to hit us.

[p261brm]

Agreed John, but those with countless amounts of the folding, most would not be satisfied with a moderate performance from any expensive re-build/restoration, and agreed therein lies the problem, and it has become worse with a drift from well applied Club regulations. Mr. White in his BARC hat in period along with sponsors devised race series, and dear Fred Mathews and his 'team' saw to the adherence of the rules by the racing members. Ledgends, Masters, VdeV etc are in short Profit making businesses, and need full grids, [nothing wrong with that] it is when blind eyes are turned, and in the first of my examples they were, then whether rightly or wrongly so bought to book, leaving, not for me, but in the owner's case, the ever prevalent nasty taste. In the other example the owner will expend a fairly high amount creating a car that in period did not exist in the first place! Crazy in the extreme.

[terence]

Comes down to one of three things,either the owners of these cars are presenting their respective cars in a 'period' state to the inspectors.Then changing the car to the intended spec.Or the inspectors are not up to speed on the particular model being inspected.Thirdly,the inspector couldn't care less about what he's looking at,I think the third option to be true in several case's from a few years ago,hence the current non conforming cars. Will it ever get sorted? Highly unlikely despite what we are constantly being told about such and such cars are under scrutinee again.

[p261brm]

Maybe Terry, or maybe the inspectors just have not the slightest idea of what was around in period. It will have to be sorted, because if it is not, the series organisers who rely on the grids for their bread and butter are in danger of joining the bankers, if Mr.Ruston's prediction comes to fruition.

[john ruston]

It's one of those cases where very little common sense or reasonable decision making is applied to the paperwork or general acceptance of cars for either racing or paperwork.
FIVA certs make more sense than the HTP set up now in use in UK.
We have had four straight forward HTP applications in the past year all of which were agreed after much melodrama and shaking of heads.It supposed to be a committee in Switzerland that is to blame but but I don't believe a word of it.

[terence]

Simple case of buck passing John,just what I've had for the last four and a half years with the HRG! Still have no HTPs,still cannot get hold of the inspector who originally signed off the FIA papers for it. P****d off,? you bet!

[simon drabble]

I don't know why it should take 4 1/2 years unless its a bit borderline... My Merlyn i got turned around in a few months 3-4 years ago when I converted it to HTP from old style papers and the 1220 Turner took the same time last year. However they where both absolutely as per homologation papers and therefore not that quick relative to the field - maybe that is the point!!

[zefarelly]

I built my car, filled in the forms, took the photos sent it all off with some folding. Then took the car to Alan Putt for inspection, within 2 days he'd emailed a report to the MSA and CC'd me. Apart from having to Harass MP @ MSA a few times to get his 'arris into gear it was simple, took about a month.

If you know what your doing and your not cheating whats the problem, should be a formality.

[terence]

Yes,thats exactly my point Zef.Perhaps some of the 'Inspectors' should consider hanging up their clip boards if they cannot be bothered to answer the phone or an e-mail.

[Peter Mallett]

I can see the point in all of this but perhaps the problem relates more to the format of the App K regulations and the philosophy behind them.

It seems to me that if an organization were to say that no modifications to the homologated version of the car were allowed, then all the specials would disappear simply because the “it raced like this in one (or more) international event” rule would not exist.

But unless I miss my guess the FIA set out to recreate, as closely as possible, the races from the pre 1966 (or any other) period. That means effectively an open door to modifications and arguably no two versions of the same car will ever coincide. See the Griffith thread.

We see this discussion quite regularly and it either comes down to “cheating” or incompetent officials. However if the rules are so wide as to allow a bus to pass through them, it seems to me that level playing fields are never going to happen. Furthermore in order to catch that bus a scrutineer or an HTP inspector must necessarily have all of the information to hand.

If owner “A” produces a creased Xerox copy of a copy of a page from Motorsport dated May 1964 that, on the face of it, appears to suggest that a Jaguar ran with a 4.4l engine at Monza or wherever, except that the “4” is actually a “3” that is obscured by the crease, it means that the inspector either has to accept that as suitable evidence or he goes away to verify. If he accepts it then sure as God made little green apples, there’ll be a dozen 4.4l jags racing at the next meeting!

As Zef said, he built his car to the homologated version, therefore there’s no need for the “it ran triple Webbers at such and such event”.

I think this is where p261brm comes from. He’s made the car fit what it was originally and ignored the “international event” criteria.

[john ruston]

It can be straightforward but we are involved with Pre War and there are no forms and such stuff.
The nonsense that surrounds it is crazy.Believe it or not there were no digital cameras taking underbonnet shots at Brooklands.
904 Porsche,did 6 cyl only run with large break duct,356,lower screen barchetta style ,do you want any more Alta in International Race Pre War.By the way the Imperial Plate at London GP in 38 wasn't but all the other races on programme were.
On and on and on.It's not straightforward unless you are doing a fake replica knocked out to look same as an old one or for Lotus 23's ,Merlyns ,Cortina but what happens if you have a Lotus 23 Porsche,Did it race Internationally.A V8 that raced in US in 50's or the Frazer Nash Targa Florio that had an Austin engine.
It's far from straightforward and the point is that somebody ought to be able to make reasonable decisions without the stuff circulating the world and effectively the customer is being to provide information so the FIA can have its own Historic Data Base.Some of the inspectors and such have problems with the changes in the system bought in during the last couple of years so its not just those on the outside.Its a political football within FIA and having spoken to a few of the great and good is not going to get any better.

[zefarelly]

so basically its simple if your building/preparing/creating/restoring a production based car manufactured in volume and well documented from the outset.

Clearly not so simple if you have a special or very limited run racing car.

Perhaps the simplest solution there is to eliminate to acceptability of fakes. there's still the window to modify/modernise original genuine cars, but for a most of marques there will be authorities on the subject and any owner of integrity will want to maintain the provenance of his steed . . . .

[terence]

RE Inspectors,they are not all bad,once trailered a Tiger down to Colnbrook with three of everthing photos,1'5 hours later I was on my way back to Cambridge,WITH THE PAPERS! Mind you the guy who did them was one of the few who knows what he's doing. No names but do you remember doing this J.?