S2000 replaced by tubechassis V8´s ?

[Aslak Vind]

Hey guys,

in DK we have one of Europes best S2000 championships, the Danish Touringcar Championship. But it seems that the greediness of the organizers and promoters has reached a new high.

They plan to replace the S2000 cars, which can be bought of the shelve from numerous manufacturers across Europe, with an one make Pratt + Miller tubular chassis V8 car, with silhouette bodies.

I am not aware of one single series in Europe which has any kind of success with this concept, outside the DTM series. The V8 Star series suffered a grim death, and I am not aware of any S2000 brand, who thinks replacing the S2000 cars with a noname chassis is viable.

Thoughts?

[cos]

Originally Posted by Aslak Vind

I am not aware of one single series in Europe which has any kind of success with this concept, outside the DTM series. The V8 Star series suffered a grim death, and I am not aware of any S2000 brand, who thinks replacing the S2000 cars with a noname chassis is viable.

Thoughts?

Well here in the UK series such as the ISC, Touring1, and SCV8 were a great success. Some of them even built a prototype and held a race.

[Alex K]

My thought is... go to Stockholm, organize a forum with STCC BoD and team bosses, series backers... and try to get the conclusion. The conclusion would be, let's create the best European S2000 league, together, let us beat WTCC with our resources, with our teams and drivers, because some of our teams are well backed, very professional with great drivers.... and the audience and TV is there to back us up.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Aslak Vind

Hey guys,

in DK we have one of Europes best S2000 championships, the Danish Touringcar Championship. But it seems that the greediness of the organizers and promoters has reached a new high.

Thoughts?

What where they high on? Crack by the sounds of it - this idea will never work as there are already enough (or possibly too many) touring car series, and outside of Germany there is little or no appetite for V8 cars, be it with fans or more crucially manufacturers.

[Aslak Vind]

Promotor Peter Elgaard and Jan Magnussen, who is representing the teams as he partly owns Alternative Engineering (Former Peugeot Sport), visited Sunday with P+M to see their offering concerning tubularchassis cars. Obviously the target is costcutting, but I cant see the benefit or payoff..

Alex_K and duke_toaster: We agree, in DK although small country we have an extremely strong S2000 championship. And if we joined forces with STCC, I am sure that we with the manufacturer support could prove them wrong. We have cars with factory support from BMW, SEAT, Honda, Chevrolet and Volvo.

Neither of them could possibly have any interest in scrapping their S2000 cars and marketing efforts of their streetcars, in favour of some OEM truck..

In my book, it is murder..!

[Speed-King]

Hmm, P&M tubeframe-chassis and V8. Looks like P&M are recycling their GXP.R-concept from Rolex GT. Although those are indeed a bit pricier than S2000 cars with ~300k USD when new. Maybe a simplified version of those?

Belgium has a modestly successfull silouette-class as well in the BTCS. I think they get around 7-8 cars in their headlining S1-class. Mostly cars from former French Supertourisme and Renault Megane Trophy there.
With Mags being a Corvette-factory driver, it's no surprise that they choose P&M.

[mildura1963]

This idea has also been floated in Australia for the V8 Supercars to cut costs.

[mountainstar]

I used to enjoy Supertouring a bit and I've tried to get into S2000 and I just can't get interested. I've watched the STCC, WTCC and BTCC and I really do try to follow it and get interested but the cars are just too slow and unspectacular. I wouldn't make a trip to Europe to see a S2000 race but I would fly to Aus or NZ for V8SC and NZV8's.

Perhaps Magnusson and friends can see the writing on the wall. I don't think they're being "greedy" just that as racing drivers you want a challenge and crowds prefer real race cars.

[werner]

I'm wondering how many DTC-cars are private, and how many are backed by a manufacturer/importer. If most are, i can't see this working. When Aslak is right when he says that no manufacturer is interested in a tube-framed racecar with it's name on it. If however the field is mainly made up of privateers, who can still race for the Danisch title, at a lower cost with faster cars, then the chances are higher. However, they still forego the opportunity to race in other series that might be interesting for them (STCC/WTCC/Procar) or sell the cars to drivers in other championships.

Having said that, I do like S2000-cars, and I like the idea of standard tubecars less, so I am against.

[Aslak Vind]

Thank you for your thoughts, keep them coming.

Well the top of the DTC is manufacturer supported, while the rest is competing in the DTC Cup. That mainly is divided, whether or not the driver is a pro or privateer.

So in theory I guess that the privateers could see it as a possibility. But as werner suggests, they will only be able to compete in Danish series. Much like the Danish Endurance Series, where the Danish sportscar Aquila SR-1 competes. it is made by modular chassis, so it is unable to compete anywhere else - and it has been a less than brilliant succes.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by Aslak Vind

Thoughts?

If they're planning that they are utterly stupid and they are murdering the sport. Touringcar racing is all about cars based on streetcars, not tubeframed V8's. Also the choice for V8's is a weird and dumb one: in a time where everybody is talking about the environment it would be much wiser to use a V6, throw in some ethanol and present it as a green concept to attract more sponsors and media attention.

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I used to enjoy Supertouring a bit and I've tried to get into S2000 and I just can't get interested. I've watched the STCC, WTCC and BTCC and I really do try to follow it and get interested but the cars are just too slow and unspectacular.

Exactly what I think!
Although I don´t think that V8 powered tubeframe cars are the answer, I would prefer 1.8 - 2.0 liter turbos with, and this is the most important part, more power to grip than S2000. Maybe something like 350 hk, low downforce and some spec parts in the chassis to keep costs down.

I don´t think it would cost more than todays S2000, it would still be interesting for manufacturers and it would be more spectacular for the fans.

[Speed-King]

If Denmark really moves away from S2000, the only series left with that ruleset will be Great Britain, Sweden and the World Championship. To an lesser extend ADAC-Procar, but they race to the S2000-rules from 2005, so their importance for the S2000-world is really neglegible.
I guess that's bad news for the whole 2litre-touring community as it further reduces the possibilities to sell and race these cars.

[werner]

Finland, the Baltic States, Russia, Portugal and Italy have championships with S2000-cars, although in the last 2 the number of entrants in the S2000-class is single-digit IIRC.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by werner

Finland, the Baltic States, Russia, Portugal and Italy have championships with S2000-cars, although in the last 2 the number of entrants in the S2000-class is single-digit IIRC.

Just looked up these:
Italy:Usual ITCC-field: 2 S2000 cars and 3 SP-cars.
Portugal: 5 S2000 cars and 5 Super-Copas and 6 cars in division 3 (mostly Clios)

I don't know much about the Finnish, Baltic or Russian championships. What kind of fields do they get?
Also didn't the Netherlands opt for FIA-GT4 instead of Super2000 recently?

[werner]

I don't know to much about those very norhhern-held championships, since my knowledge of their languages is zero. But at the ETCC were quite a few Russians, so that championship must be reasonable.

Ideed next year there will be a Dutch GT-4 championship. I'm sure they have thought it trough, but I would have preferred an S2000-championship, and go to Belgium's (GT3) Belcar to see GT's.

[Speed-King]

FYI: Just looked up the Russian TTC and they look indeed quite repectable. Here are the results of their last race.
http://www.motorsport.ru/rus/results...1600/1/result/
There's an (incomplete) English version of their site, but it helps you to figure out what is what in the Russian version.

IIRC the Focuses (Foci?!?) are the former-WTCC-cars and the Audi A4 might be from STCC. I wonder where the Civics are from. Did Team Halfords sell their cars last year?

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Also didn't the Netherlands opt for FIA-GT4 instead of Super2000 recently?

They did opt for the GT4 concept, but it wasn't instead of S2000. S2000 was never seriously discussed here as far as I know.

[mattt]

One thing that can be said this may well be suicide

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

They did opt for the GT4 concept, but it wasn't instead of S2000. S2000 was never seriously discussed here as far as I know.

From the "Benelux-Touringcar-Championship"-Thread:

Originally Posted by FIRE

I read an interview with the competition manager of Zandvoort. In 2009 they want to start a new premier racing series. At the moment they focus on two options:
a) S2000 (and group N like JTCC?). Disadvantage is high costs
or
b) GT4

For both options they want involvement from importers and dealers.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

IIRC the Focuses (Foci?!?) are the former-WTCC-cars and the Audi A4 might be from STCC. I wonder where the Civics are from. Did Team Halfords sell their cars last year?

Don't think so - however in the early days of WTCC there were some Civic (not current shape of course).

[Speed-King]

From Flash Nielsen's column on touring car times:

Rumor is that they will change the rules for 2009 and that we will see a complete silhouette car with common parts except for the engine that already has good regulations. If this is true, the DTM will take off and knock away the platform for WTCC immediately. I keep my fingers crossed, this could be the save for touring car racing in europe.

Wonder what he has to say about the Danish proposal.

Also, do we know, if the DTC-organizers plan a common (presumably GM-) engine for all cars, or if the engine will be manufacturer specific?
At the moment P&M are - afaik - an exclusive contractor of GM, it would be somewhat strange to see them built cars that promote other manufacturers either way, with ot without GM-engine.

[Aslak Vind]

I am told, that the cars will be technically generic, with common driveetrain and engine, buildt by P+M.

So the only parts relating to the marque, will be the bodyshell and other parts. Which might be the only way to go, as several of the manufacturers does not produce a V8. But I dont know for sure..

The Danish regulation is S2000, with national adjustments.

Interesting news from Janne Flash, it seems that the Nordic organizers has held more than one meeting. However, one thing Janne forgets is the fact, that if the cars should be buildt as a DTM car, the cost would be extreme?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Aslak Vind

Interesting news from Janne Flash, it seems that the Nordic organizers has held more than one meeting. However, one thing Janne forgets is the fact, that if the cars should be buildt as a DTM car, the cost would be extreme?

Not exactly "news". The column was from early in the year I think.
You can read the full column here: http://touringcartimes.com/columns.php?id=2

Generic drive-train is bad news, however.

[Aslak Vind]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Not exactly "news". The column was from early in the year I think.
You can read the full column here: http://touringcartimes.com/columns.php?id=2

Generic drive-train is bad news, however.

News for me anyway

About the generic drivetrain, I am honestly only assuming.