Decisions decisions...

[dj choc ice]

Hello everyone,

In the next few months i will be coming into a nice bit of money, so much so that i have taken the decision to use this money and to sell my current car (Pug 106), to buy something new and crucially, something that will feed my insatiable need for speed some more.

I have a budget of £4,000-£5,000, insurance is not a problem, mainly im looking for advice, previous experience etc, things along these lines:

So far ive looked at a pretty eclectic mix of cars, ranging from an old range rover to a lotus elise, BMW 5 series, however, ive whittled it down to a few cars that im going to decide between. So, could anyone offer advice, experience on these cars? in particular reliability and running costs, this is a car that im going to be keeping hold of for at least 3 or 4 years, the cars are:

Renault Clio 172/182.
Subaru Impreza WRX (unmolested of course).
Honda Integra type R.
Honda Civic type R.
Seat Leon Cupra (180bhp, 225bhp model is out of price range unfortunately).
BMW 325 E46.

So far im keenest on the Impreza as it offers as an all round package the best value for money, however, im worried about running costs and reliability in the back of my mind. The clio is attractive because of its price, but my brother has had a clio 172 for 6 years, and its leaking oil, the electrics are chronic and its nuking cat's and silencers something terrible.
The Integra's seem to be a bit on the old side for the money, and i would only buy one in black (sod's law there are hardly any black one's).
The Civic is a cracker, parents have had one since new in 2004 and its never skipped a beat, however, it costs a lot on insurance.
The beemer im worried about running costs and servicing.
The Seat is the unknown quantity, ive heard good things but i would like to hear what they are like.

Thanks.

[Steven Humphrey]

I had a Leon Cupra 180bhp and loved it! Great value as it's all Audi bits under the bonnet (same engine & gearbox as a TT, S3, Golf GTI & Skoda VRS). Insurance will be same as Civic, I think & tax is pretty expensive. Plus you'll be lucky to get 30mpg unless you drive like an old lady. Very reliable-all I had to replace was a water temp sensor (plus tyres) in 4 years. Seat service is good & fairly cheap. Only niggle was leaky door seals (a common problem) resulting in damp floor matts in the front. Drives like a dream too-very quick and handles well.

[bella]

i had a clio 172 and yeah, wouldn't recommend it unless you're looking for a track day car or something that you don't have to live with day in day out!

the beemer... well i've got a 320td 02 plate and apart from the turbo nuking (a common problem) it's been bulletproof. it has now done 150,000 miles problem free apart from the nuke incident. the service interval on that is about 14,000 and tbh it's not really essential to keep up the full bmw service history after the first few years. so long as you have some sort of service history it's fine for resale - it's more important to look after it in general.

i would say go for the bmw if you want a really comfortable long journey car that won't rattle your teeth when you go over a pebble (unlike the 172). if you want something fun then it's not quite so ideal.

[terence]

I would agree on both of the above,probably erring on the Seat side for reasons of purchase cost more than anything else.

[dj choc ice]

im starting to lean towards the seat, have been reading reviews etc on the t'internet and no one really has anything bad to say about it, they are good value for money as well, eaiser to find a good or reasonable condition one, than it is an imp or beemer.
After christmas im going to try and get a drive in the seat, ive driven a clio 172 but not the cup, 330 beemer ci (which i loved, 325 more of the same but with a bit less go). Type R ive driven and i absolutely adore it, especially the engine. I have not however driven an impreza, its probably the one im keenest on. Guess you cant blame me though, i was a huge WRC fan growing up, hence the Impreza has a lot of appeal to me because of that.

[Steven Humphrey]

Forgot to mention, the Leon was very comfortable aswell, with a softer ride than the Civic (which I have never driven but but looked into when getting the Leon) apparently plus climate control and a good sound system. The Civic is probably quicker round a track but needs to be reved hard to get the best out of it whereas the Leon has plenty of torque throughout the rev range. And when that turbo kicks in :-)

Have you thought about a Cupra TDI? Still pretty quick (150bhp) and a lot cheaper to run.

[zac510]

How is insurance not a problem? I thought you'd get stung pretty hard with an Impreza or type-r at your age.

[dj choc ice]

I have £2,000 in the bank, initially i was going to use this to put towards a new car, however, im now using this for insurance, ive priced up all the listed cars, im looking at no more than £1,500 on insurance for the above cars.

arnie, ive considered a diesel but i simply cant stand the things, i would much rather have a petrol car, they put a much bigger smile on my face

[ROB IS THE STIG]

dj, check ur PM's buddy

[dj choc ice]

thanks for the PM rob, they seem to be damn good car's the Seat's, im leaning more and more towards one now, plus the fact that they are pretty damn good value for money as well compared to the CTR's for example.

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

I have £2,000 in the bank, initially i was going to use this to put towards a new car, however, im now using this for insurance,

What about next year? Insurance, I mean. If anything like here the premium might decrease but not by much.

[garcon]

The Leon is a great all round choice. Cheaper to run than the Impreza and nearly as much fun.

I would advocate searching around for a good UK model relatively unmolested Impreza to test drive - you might instantly fall in love! (I'm on my 7th Subaru... )As long it's a UK car (not Jap import), hasn't been mucked about with too much (an exhaust and brake upgrade would be nice), and has a fully stamped dealer service history then it should give you utterly bombproof reliability. Quite a bit of choice at 5 grand too. I would also suggest looking for a really nice MkI (around Y reg) rather than the MkII, and if it's anywhere near 60k miles make sure the 60k service has been done.

[strider]

Originally Posted by garcon

I would advocate searching around for a good UK model relatively unmolested Impreza to test drive - you might instantly fall in love! (I'm on my 7th Subaru... )As long it's a UK car (not Jap import), hasn't been mucked about with too much (an exhaust and brake upgrade would be nice), and has a fully stamped dealer service history then it should give you utterly bombproof reliability. Quite a bit of choice at 5 grand too. I would also suggest looking for a really nice MkI (around Y reg) rather than the MkII, and if it's anywhere near 60k miles make sure the 60k service has been done.

I'd agree with all that having been in love with my Impreza RB5 PPP for over ten years now. But do check the service record and ideally have it looked over by someone who knows about Subarus.

One warning: they drink petrol.

This is purely a personal opinion based on personal experience, but don't go near a Type-R.

[dj choc ice]

Hey guys, back again, a few new cars im considering after a post on Pistonheads, im looking into a Toyota Celica GT4 ST205 at the moment, they are bloody good value for money and from what i have been told, give absolutely brilliant performance and great reliability.
Had a little drive in a VW Lupo GTI which i briefly considered, must be honest, brilliant little car, wicked handling and braking but its short on straight line puff and doesnt put enough of a smile on my face. (Feels a lot like my pug in fast forward, great fun but it doesnt really do it.)

Im going to start getting test drives in car's soon, at the moment i am keenest on a Integra type R, im a sucker for that banshee 4 pot engine and being a Honda it wont let me down. The Impreza is really still taking my fancy, but im being put off by the running cost's, so once ive driven a good UK Imp ill make my mind up then. The Celica GT4 however though is something different, not many of them around, the rarity factor is quite appealing to me.

Strider, may i ask why not to go near a Type R, curiosity has got the better of me.

[garcon]

I'm no expert on the Celica GT4, but I was a big fan of them when new. I would expect running costs to be very similar to the Impreza. And you might have at least as much difficulty finding a straight one that hasn't been badly modded.

If you have any specific Integra questions, let me know. I know a guy on another forum who's a bit of an expert on them.

[dj choc ice]

Thanks Garcon, i must admit i love the look of the Celica, memories of castrol coloured rally cars howling through welsh forests are coming back that for sure!

If you could forward these questions to this Integra expert that would be smashing

What are the main differences between the UK spec Teg type R's and the imported DC2 Type R's?

Is it worth buying a car with high mileage i.e 90,000 miles or more?

What things should i look out for if i go to look at a car?

A lot of cars seem to have uprated air intakes, exhausts, should i avoid these cars or not on reliability grounds?

What are running costs and servicing costs like, are there any inherent problems/faults with Teg Type R's?

Thank you very very much

Having spent a lot of today bored ive priced up insurance (again) for all of the car's, inclusing the Celica and Lupo GTI. Surprise surprise the Lupo cost's peanuts to insure (£620) while the Celica is pretty steep (£1,550) the Teg is quite steep at £1,300 but it doesnt look like im going to get insurance much below the £1,200-£1,300 region. Any insurers people could reccomend?
ive heard people say Adrian Flux is good for performance cars but their online quote thing on pistonheads is giving astronomical prices, so far ive gone through compare the market and go compare. Compare the market returning cheaper prices than anywere else. While Directline just wont come up with anything.

[strider]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

Strider, may i ask why not to go near a Type R, curiosity has got the better of me.

I guess a straight question deserves a straight answer, But I did say the reasons were personal.

The first is that I had it immediately after an Audi TT and I thought it would be more fun. In a way it was, but I didn't like the way you had to rev the nuts off it all the time to access the performance. It's nice to have performance on tap and this didn't. I've done my bit of racing thanks and now I don't want a road car that has to be driven like a racing car.

The other truly personal reason is within the space of a few months I tail-ended a couple of cars at relatively low speeds. The second time was definitely my fault, but the first time I felt the ABS cut in too soon. Some idiot girl had done an unexpected (and unnecessary) panic stop in front of me on a slip road off the A14. It was a scary moment, but I felt the car was going to stop in time until the ABS cut in and the Type-R just rolled into the back of her. The guy behind me, who was in a similar situation did stop, which I feel proves my point.

After that the Type-R had to go. I had a Mini Cooper S for a while, which felt much faster due to the supercharger even if the on-paper figures said otherwise.

Now, in that bracket I have Ford Puma 1.7, which is definitely the most fun of them all. It's not as fast in a straight line, but makes up for it elsewhere, particularly roundabouts. As long as you have a good line of sight it goes through those at amazing speeds and the gear change is outstanding.

So that's the truth. It may have been partly me, but I couldn't stand the car. A friend had another Type-R and he wrote that off against the back of an HGV...

One other thing about the Hondas I have had is that they were very poor for tyre noise. I had the top-of the-range Prelude (before the Type-R version) with 4-wheel steer and that was very nice, and before that one one of the V-Tec Civics, which helped me out of the biggest avoidance I have ever had to make on the A34 past Oxford. It was a massive tank slapper, but the car and I survived for which I shall always be grateful.

[Woolley]

Having had an N reg BMW 316i for 9 years, I can only praise its reliability. Servicing cost little (providing you don't use BMW!) largely because it rarely needed anything doing. Failed MOT once for something fairly stupid and easily solved. It's also driven from the right end. I enjoyed driving it in all conditions and types of journeys, 325i is much the same but with a lot more poke.

Now moved to an 05 320d. I'll gloss over an initial problem (solved stress-free under guarantee) and say otherwise my experience is the same, running costs even less unless you need to buy a tyre.

[garcon]

Ok, this is a bit lengthy but I thought others may also find it useful hence posting here rather than PM.

Here's my Integra buddy's answers to your questions:

What are the main differences between the UK spec Teg type R's and the imported DC2 Type R's?

OK, there are 3 ‘models’.

’96-spec JDM, ’98-spec JDM and UKDM. I’ll try and lay down the main differences that will affect your car-decision-making purchase. The stuff I leave out doesn’t really matter.

All of them have the exact same engine, cams, pistons, rods, crank, intake manifold, intake, etc. The only reason the JDM car makes more power, is the exhaust system is more free-flowing as standard. Change a UKDM exhaust manifold/exhaust for a JDM or an aftermarket, it frees up some power and makes it noticeably more peppy.

The ’96 spec has different gear ratios, the ’98 spec and UKDM have a higher final drive and slightly wider 4-5 ratios. The net result is better acceleration in 1-2-3, with 4-5 *slightly* better for cruising. There are die-hard ’96 spec JDM fans who argue the earlier gearbox is better, but everyone else (including Honda) consider the later one an improvement.

The ’96 spec has inferior brakes.

262mm front discs, UK and ’98 JDM models got 282mm front discs. The calipers are also bigger, naturally. It makes a BIG improvement. Many ’96 owners swap for the later spec brakes.

The ’96 models are more often than not missing a lot of creature comforts. Airbags and ABS being 2 big ones. It’s VERY rare to find a ’96 JDM with those 2 options, and when you do find a ’96 model with ABS, it had the earlier pump which was the size of Cornwall and generally crap. ’98 JDM models and UK cars have the same ABS system and it’s far superior.

On the flip side, ’96 spec models are a bit lighter. When a ’96 model has NO options at all (clock, radio, ABS, A/C, airbags), it weighs in at about 1,060kg. When I had my fully-loaded UKDM model corner-weighted, it was 1,110kg. So 50kg in it really.

If you see these monkeys advertising “lightweight” spec models on pistonheads or autotrader, it basically means it’s one of the old JDM cars that’s got ****-all in it.

If you strip a UKDM car down in the same way, they weigh the same amount, there isn’t some fabled lightweight version, they already weighed ****-all anyway.

Is it worth buying a car with high mileage i.e 90,000 miles or more?

To a certain extent. As long as they’ve been maintained well, then there isn’t any real reason not to. The only catch is, if the suspension bushes haven’t been replaced, they’ll be tired and sloppy.
It will still handle well, but until you drive it back to back with one that has new bushes, you won’t realise how sloppy it really is.

Essentially don’t pay the same for a high miler as a low miler unless it’s had a full re-work. Of the suspension. Dampers included, they get tired too and sloppy.

The engine will still be solid if it’s been serviced correctly. I’ve seen them do ~200,000 before a rebuild/refresh is necessary.

If it burns some oil, don’t worry. Get a compression test done, and if it’s solid then don’t panic. When revved hard they do burn a bit, it’s not a problem.

What things should i look out for if i go to look at a car?

The rear arches. If not taken care of, they rust like buggery. But don’t just look on the outside, insist to look under the boot carpet around the arch area, there is also a problem area in front of the arch which you can’t see unless you pull the interior apart, but unfortunately that’s a bit of a gamble, unless you insist on stripping part of it out to look. I’ll fish out some pictures of the places to look a bit later and send them to garcon and he can forward them on.

A lot of cars seem to have uprated air intakes, exhausts, should i avoid these cars or not on reliability grounds?

Not at all, my personal car has a fully uprated head with cams, valves, valvesprings, retainers, injectors, the lot. I’ve done 24k miles on it so far. Things like air intakes and exhausts don’t affect the reliability of functionality of the car at all. Some of them are **** parts that should be binned, but it’s not a difficult job and things like that can be easily reversed.

What are running costs and servicing costs like, are there any inherent problems/faults with Teg Type R's?

Running and servicing is dirt cheap. Cambelt, £200, clutch, £300, tyres £70, full service, £150. These are all costs from independent specialists that are trustworthy. I wouldn’t take it to a dealer anymore as most of the staff have never worked on them before or actually know them well.

Inherant faults, erm….as the cars are getting older they can suffer from sticking rear brake calipers. A rebuilt kit from Honda is like £40. When the car’s been sitting for a while, when you release the handbrake and drive off you can hear the rear brakes scuffing where they haven’t totally released. It’s no biggy and they slacken off after a few miles and get back to normal, but it is a fault. The front do it to a certain extent, but nowhere near as bad and it’s more of an anomaly than a consistent fault as the rears are.
Do a compression check on the engine, make sure all 4 are consistent between. If one or some are low, walk away.

When going for a drive, let the engine warm up so that the coolant temperature needle is just left of halfway, and rev it above 6,000rpm. You should feel a nice healthy kick as VTEC cuts in, and it should pull cleanly all the way to the limiter.

It should be crisp throttle response and clean revving all the time, if it isn’t then something is wrong.

If someone has a VAFC, ‘VTEC controller’, UniChip or anything like that, then leave it, as someone has butchered the wiring harness to get it to fit.

Aside from the bushes, oil burning and sticky rear callipers, I can’t think of anything else really.

The radio aerial sometimes breaks and make horrible noises, but it’s easily replaced.

Seat bolsters naturally, take a look at.

Can’t think of anything else right now. If there is a car near to where I live in Cambridge, or surrounding, I’d gladly go take a look at one in exchange for some petrol money.

I’ll send pictures later of the arches.


If you have any more questions, fire away.

[dj choc ice]

absolutely smashing garcon, thats really helped me with my decision of what to buy, ive joined the Integra type R DC2 club forum, drove a Bug eyed Impreza today and its one hell of an exciting car, cracking engine and stupidly quick. However though, the insurance is an absolute ball ache, not to mention the running costs. So ive decided to boycott the Impreza, cracking car to drive though, if running costs and insurance were lower i probably would have given an offer there and then but hey ho.

Got to wait until after new year now to test drive anything else, in particular the Teg, a specialist insurance company for Teg's is getting back in touch, so im going to see if i can get a couple of hundred squids off the £1,600 quote i had.

If so, and i like the Teg, then its all lights green and i will hopefully have a Teg come Feb or March (now i have to start thinking about getting rid of my car for good money!).

Again, i would like to thank everyone who has helped out so far, youve all been great .

[garcon]

I think you're on to a good choice. The Integra, set up right, is the best handling fwd car ever built. Save the Impreza for later - when you can afford a nicer one and the insurance isn't so scary.

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by garcon

I think you're on to a good choice. The Integra, set up right, is the best handling fwd car ever built. Save the Impreza for later - when you can afford a nicer one and the insurance isn't so scary.

I must say, the Impreza i was hugely impressed with, its one hell of a capable piece of kit, if the WRX is that much fun and that quick im struggling to imagine what the STI is like.

I must confess though that if it were not for the running costs and insurance, i would have gone for the impreza in a heartbeat. The Impreza is on the list of cars i must own before i kick the bucket, a nice STI in black one day

Now im just going to save up the cash from my christmas job etc, so i can buy a better example of the Teg, popped into a garage were a friend works and got a quick valuation done on my car. Got offered £1,100 there and then for the 106, so on that front i will see what the best deal i can get on my current car is. Then, once thats in hand, Integra here i come.

Again thank you everyone, especially Garcon and youre Integra expert, pass a message of thanks on to him please, merry christmas everyone as well .

[garcon]

I shall pass that on. Glad to be of help.

[dj choc ice]

Hi guys and gals, thought i would give you all an update on how things are going considering you all helped out so much. I still dont have a new car, still waiting for a nice Teg to come around in my price range. After driving a Teg, i can simply say it is a brilliant piece of engineering, beautiful handling and engine. Ive also been very tempted to get my mitts on a Civic VTI and fettle it a bit (cam's/pulley's, performance exahust, CAI and induction, strut brace's, lighten it, grippier tyre's, lower stiffer suspension) But i decided against that. Hopefully i will have a Teg in the next couple of months.

[dj choc ice]

well finally after months of looking, indecision on a catastrophic scale ive gone for a car which i didnt even consider in the first place. Going to see a gentleman in the week to put a deposit down on a Honda Civic VTI 5 door in Pirates Black, absolutely love the car, looks, goes, drives, sounds and feels brilliant, bit of a change from deciding on a Teg. In the end though, it was running cost's which decided, recently looked at an Accord Type R which was awesome to drive and very quick, but it was a bit too big and too heavy to run.

I shall post some pictures once i have the car