THE ALL IN ONE UNIFICATION THREAD

[MLM]

OK, this topic is on the Champ Car forum (with all the arguing, etc...).
I'm assuming most of you have either read or heard about the Autoweek article, last night's "Wind Tunnel" show, and the news about the meeting among Penske and "Los 3 Amigos".

What's YOUR take on the whole deal, since most of you here are pro-IRL and/or pro-unification.
I think most of you know that I'm all for unification....and I think it needs to happen NOW!
OK, folks...let the opinions fly.

[Kicking-back]

All for it.

It's the only way to survive.

A balanced series with 8 to 10 ovals and 8 to 10 road/street races - all in USA/Canada/Mexico, plus Motegi and Surfers.

[Tim Northcutt]

I'm for it, too....

But I think it will happen one way or another....the question is whether it will be sooner or later....

I truly believe it is only a matter of time....

[sgw2]

I've noticed on several forums that this is one of the "hot" CCWS topics. But it is really very dead on IRL boards.

CART/OWRS really bring next to nothing to the table. All IRL would get is Long Beach in 2005 instead of 2006. Maybe they would get one or two more cars - they'll get one or two from Haas, and one from a team I cannot name publicly yet next year regardless. But they wouldn't get much else. The foriegn races are a net negative, a major cuase for CART's downward spiral. Why go there?

The bitter enders cannot be delivered by OWRS anyway - few thousands that they are. And its most likely that the three amigos would over play their hand and any "deal" would fall through. Afterall their biggest leverage is to offer to simply go away; something they are likely to do in next few months anyway. Forsythe has stopped adding money to the OWRS coffers, and Gentilozzi never put much in to beging with.

Why bother. Let the CCWS crowd worry about it. Lets focus on racing.

[MLM]

You brought up 2 interesting points.

1)This does seem to be a bigger deal for a lot of the OWRS crowd. Why? Are they scared the series will go under and everything could be gobbled by by TG and company?
It seems more OWRS fans are saying "if unification happens, I won't watch it" than IRL or "middle-of-the-road" fans do (except for the EXTREME IRLers, of course...but again, there seems to be, IMO, more extreme OWRS fans than IRL...but that's my observation). It seems to me, even though Penske was quoted (by Robin Miller) that the IRL has problems, would the 3 Amigos even talk to him if OWRS wasn't having problems, too?

2)So, in your opinion, who needs to worry more and/or bring to the table more...the 3 Amigos or the IRL? Is it the case that OWRS will simply die off and what's left will be absorbed by the IRL?

[rush1]

Gentilozzi has talked of unification in the past where the IRL has not. It leads me to believe they could work something out. But as sgw2 says, what are the benefits of unification for the IRL? Maybe the Mexican contingent and one or two cars from Haas. What exactly do the three amigos have to bargain with?

Unification means whats left of the old CART carcass is absorbed by the Indy Racing League. It probably means a nice check to the three amigos for their trouble. The benefit is the story get some positive press, but I wonder how many people really care at this point.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by sgw2
I've noticed on several forums that this is one of the "hot" CCWS topics. But it is really very dead on IRL boards.

CART/OWRS really bring next to nothing to the table. All IRL would get is Long Beach in 2005 instead of 2006. Maybe they would get one or two more cars - they'll get one or two from Haas, and one from a team I cannot name publicly yet next year regardless. But they wouldn't get much else. The foriegn races are a net negative, a major cuase for CART's downward spiral. Why go there?

The bitter enders cannot be delivered by OWRS anyway - few thousands that they are. And its most likely that the three amigos would over play their hand and any "deal" would fall through. Afterall their biggest leverage is to offer to simply go away; something they are likely to do in next few months anyway. Forsythe has stopped adding money to the OWRS coffers, and Gentilozzi never put much in to beging with.

Why bother. Let the CCWS crowd worry about it. Lets focus on racing.

Pretty accurate, but rememebr that, for all its faults, CART has a very big following in Canada and Mexico, and the US races get respectable attendances.

[Fogelhund]

What does OWRS have to bargain with?

1. A large and passionate fanbase who mostly refuse to support IRL. You'll find most would support a unified series, despite the rheotoric.
2. Very well supported events, by fan attendance, sponsorship and local organizations. LBGP, Mexican events, Canadian Events.
3. Haas, Forsythe are as strong as any of the IRL teams, and certainly the OWRS has some very strong drivers.
4. The three amigos have money to promote the series. The combined economic $ of TG, the three amigos and whomever else could be involved would be of much greater benefit then any single group.
5. Capturing Road Racing fans.
6. Manufactures Toyota/Honda get increased exposure by racing at OWRS events in addition to where they are now, with no real increase in costs.
7. Sponsors get increased exposure.

Let's face it, neither series is marching towards great TV ratings, or having sponsors knocking down the doors to get in. Even with all of the CART defections to IRL, it was last minute moves to get 33 cars at Indy. Not a bash on anything, but a stark reality that when Open Wheel racing has deteriorated to such a point that so few people care enough.. well you get the point. Both IRL and OWRS struggle to get enough entries. Between the 40 entries in each series, it would be easy to envision 30 very strong entries in one combined series. Now that would be a very interesting proposition.

Perhaps there are people in both series, who have realized that the argument, "We suck less then they do", isn't a long-term plan.



Neither series is sustainable on its own long-term, and the wait period for one to die off, just makes Open-Wheel racing weaker while it happens.

[macdaddy]

Good post, Fogelhund. Very true words.

[MLM]

Yes. IMO, I think the unification issue can be discussed calmly and rationally...which is why I wanted to bring it up HERE.
Another question to ponder: it seems to me that there is a chink in the NASCAR "armor" right now (ie:the brouhahas over yellow-flag finishes, the glitches in scoring, and the seemingly discontent among its fan base). This might be the opportune moment for OW racing to "get with the program" and start presenting a united and STRONG front in order to make some dent (OK, maybe small...but you can start out small and build on it) in the racing fan base.

Now this is speculating on my part and I want to hear your opinions. I think this forum can do that rationally and calmly
(IMO, of course )

[Team Owner]

I don't think that Tony George or any members of the Hulman family would accept just being on a board with no deciding vote. Remember this was one of the things that was a contributing factor in the original breakaway. The only thing that hasn't been taken into account is the fact of whether or not the Hulman Corp is making enough money on the Nascar and F-1 events to risk letting control of the Indy 500 and the IRL go to a board of directors. I applaud Roger for trying to get something done but my question to him is " What's in it for you? " Roger doesn't do anything because of his heart. He does it because he has something invested in it. There must be a financial incentive for Penske involved IMO.

[MLM]

Of course there must be a financial incentive for Penske...his track record speaks for itself, IMO.
The only professions, I think, people get into for non-altruistic reasons (ie:the good of others) are teaching and nursing (OK, there may be more but since I'm in the former and have friends in the latter, I can cite those 2 with a degree of confidence ).

I'm glad you've chimed in, TeamOwner, with your opinion. This topic is being discussed a LOT in the Champ Car forum, although some of the posts are,shall I say, emotional.

Like I said before, I'm for unification and the sooner the better....the time is NOW or, IMO, time will run out on OW racing in the US

[macdaddy]

MLM... While I would agree that the topic is somewhat "emotional" on the CC board, I feel that it is also quite rational. Most (of course, not all) of the members there seem to look forward to any reunification.

[MLM]

I agree, macdaddy...that's why I wanted to start a dialogue here

Let's just say it is my hope and dream to have a unified series,with the empahsis on or built around the Indy 500
Maybe it's a "pipe dream"...but it's my lovely "pipe dream". I just wish everyone would come together for the GOOD of the sport and with his/her concerns on his/her/their favorite team or driver.

[911gt1]

Originally posted by sgw2

CART/OWRS really bring next to nothing to the table.

If this is true, then why is Roger Penske so addement about reunification? Granted, Roger does what is best for Roger, but I bet Toyota and some others are not pleased and putting a lot of pressure on him to do something.

Of course the real question is, except for Indy and staggering costs, what does the IRL bring to reunification?

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by MLM
I just wish everyone would come together for the GOOD of the sport and with his/her concerns on his/her/their favorite team or driver.

Hear, hear.

[marcus]

A unified series would be good to see.
Im greedy and love watching both series , and would still enjoy it if this situation continued.

But I doubt that it will , both series have problems and they will either have to merge to stay alive or risk one or the other or possibly both series collapsing.

[sgw2]

Originally posted by 911gt1
If this is true, then why is Roger Penske so addement about reunification? Granted, Roger does what is best for Roger, but I bet Toyota and some others are not pleased and putting a lot of pressure on him to do something.

Of course the real question is, except for Indy and staggering costs, what does the IRL bring to reunification?

IMHO Penske has two agendas here

1) He wants a professional manager to replace George as head of IRL - in the mold of Mike Helton for NASCAR - and for George to retire into the background as "proprietor" only.

2) Good Guy PR. This provides cover for Carl Haas to switch and for promoters to switch.

It is possible that Penske holds the illusion that die hard CARTisans could be induced to be IRL supporters. But I think this is seriously belived by Penske. Even if the three amigos appeared together with George and Penske and announced a merger, regardless of the terms, the hard core still would fight on. Its who they are.

What Penske accomplishes is good will for the last few fence sitters. He may also be showing some sponsor he is going the extra mile.

As for OWRS, I ask you what they can deliver?

[sgjb]

I am a OWRS fan but am finding the dialogue here quite interesting. I must say I believe they need to come together. I do think the IRL RIGHT NOW has more to offer to the mix if they join forces as the IRL is more stable, if possible at this time.

I do think however if we were to forward 3 years from now if the 3 amigos were to keep propping up CART and the IRL keeps ongoing I am not sure who would have the most to bring to the table.

IMO Roger is seeing something down the road that is possible trouble for the IRL, maybe engines etc leaving the series as they did with CART or at least cutting back the sweet engine deals they have been handing out. This would but alot of teams in a further pinch with the problems raising funds for advertising and further hurting the car count.

I hope they can put themselves in a room and come out with a deal as I think they need to realize they truely need each other. One more than the other right now for sure, but they have to forget about that and get a deal done. Both sides if their stupid can keep subsidizing teams and losing money only helping to alienate fans all over the continent. I was a big fan who attending about 5 CART races per year, this year I will go to two and I have watched the races on TV without alot of interest. As for next year I am not sure!

I was happy to see Buddy Rice win the Indy and enjoyed watching the race, as it is still a race that I take alot of interest in.

[mountainstar]

Roger is desperate to do a deal because being the good business person he is, he knows the game is up. Fred Nation stated last year in the Indy Star that the IRL has never turned a profit. That being the case, one wonders how long the hulman family fortune will be able to subsidize the IRL.

With fan attendance and tv ratings for the IRL continuing to fall through the roof, how long can it continue before someone says enough?

A big stink has been made about Toyota and Honda extending contracts for engines. But does that mean the big checks are going to keep rolling in? Let's be honest, Ganassi, Penske, Rahal, Fernandez, Andretti Green, etc. would not be around if it wasn't for the checks from Toyota and Honda.

So in regards to unification, if I was OWRS, I'd play it out a bit more, it's only a matter of time.

An interesting comment from Robin Millers column yesterday:

Kalkhoven replied:

"They are so enthusiastic to do something with us it's almost frightening"

[JohnSSC]

We have a good thread on this in the CC forum (I know some of you, for good reason, are loathe to journey there) so why not join us?

My thought briefly is that this needs to happen soon or there will be no open wheel racing. ALL of the sponsor deals - engine/tire/etc will dry up if the fan base continues to evaporate.

[macdaddy]

Roger's not "desperate" to do anything. He certainly didn't make his fortune by racing cars! He could race in any series he wishes, with any engines. That's been shown time and time again.

[macdaddy]

And let's stop bashing the CC board over here. If you don't like it, don't browse it! Pretty simple, really. But don't go spieling about the unimaginable horrors that await anybody else who might want to visit.

[dironstarr]

Well, Tony has finally acknowledge the "talks":

"I am totally out of the loop on this one, And it's hard to conduct negotiations by yourself."

Penske talks with Champ Car leaders

And:

The impetus of the meeting was Gentilozzi, who contacted Penske

[Kicking-back]

Hmm.