British GT

[JAG]

Why is this Championship in such an awful state?

Scrap the series at the end of this season and setup a new British Sportscar Championship with 'LMP3'/GT3 cars, and 2 hour+ races.

BGT just seems to be getting worse and worse!

[SALEEN S7R]

Why do you say this JAG? Mondello never gets big entries. Overall the British GT championship has more entries this year than last and the quality of the entries are probably a little bit better too. LNT are back in the championship and are giving Scuderia Ecosse a hard fight for their money as are Eclipse and Eurotech with their Porsche and Rollcentre with their Moslers. Added to that 2 cars from the British GT championship finished 1st and 3rd in class at Le Mans this year showing once again that the British GT championship is home to some of the strongest GT2 teams to be found at the moment.

[JAG]

There are two cars worth getting of your backside to go and watch, the Panoz and 430.

Scrapping GT1 (not even the REAL GT1's) was bad enough, now we are down to two GT2 cars which, good as they may be, does amount to much excitement for spectators.

These days you may as well go to a BTCC meeting, watch the Carrera Cup and touring cars.

British GT is a shadow of the 'bad' days when we 'only' had a handfull of Listers and Saleens battling it out (the reason why the Championship swiched to GT2) , never mind the Mclaren and 911 GT1 years.

Whats the betting we could rustle up 4-5 GT1's consisting of Listers, Vipers and the odd Saleen, so long as the field was balanced to give older cars a fighting chance.

Pitty is all the decent BGT teams and funded drivers will move to FIA GT3/GT2 or the LMS.

At least pocket rocket 'LMP3's' dicing among a field of GT's (I'd open it upto any GT, homolgated or not) would be exciting.

These days there are many attractive opportunities for well funded teams on the international scene, so we need to open up British GT/Sportscars to club drivers who can't afford a Panoz, or even 997 GT3 Porsche, but could run a little Radical, Prosport or self built Special GT.

[TheNewBob]

I have to agree with JAG - Mondello may not always get large entries, but race 2 saw just one GT2 car out there all on it's own, against just 2 of the GT3's, whilst the hugely uninspiring GTC class made up the majority of the field.

We can all tolerate the occasional small grid, but that one really raised alarm bells for me. I can see GT2 being taken away from British GT altogether, which would be the third time in roughly 6 years that the championship has lost it's top class. Unless we start getting some decent GT3 entries (like the class reaching double figures - without huge numbers of Porsches!) then the championship might as well not exist.

My personal ideal scenario? Make some 996 RSR's available and competitive and limit the new 997 to international racing for a few years to allow cheaper but effective GT2 competition. That or do something to allow the variety and depth in GT2 that we saw in '03-to-early '05. Give some older GT1's a performance boost to clear them a little way ahead of the GT2's and it could be possible to get maybe even 6-8 GT1's - such as Listers, Vipers, Balfe Motorsport with their Saleen, maybe even the odd Marcos and Ferrari 550/575. Alright that's far-fetched and isn't ever likely to happen, but it's not 100% impossible...

It sounds like taking a step backwards a few years, but it would allow an outfit to get used to running a top class GT car without spending far too much, and it would also help to draw the crowds in and create the great spectacle that GT racing should be, rather than the disappointing struggle we're seeing right now. Some decent organisation of the championship would be needed, too.

I do, however, also quite like the idea of running GT's and LMP's in a single British series, together. Would a grid combining GT2/GT3/LMP2/LMP3 work? GT2 and LMP2 might be in smaller numbers, but I'd say we do need a top class that associates with the racing that goes on internationally.

There is, however, one word that stops all my ideas written above dead in their tracks and probably so many ideas from others, too. Money.

[KA]

Originally Posted by JAG

Whats the betting we could rustle up 4-5 GT1's consisting of Listers, Vipers and the odd Saleen, so long as the field was balanced to give older cars a fighting chance.

If we can't get a decent regular turnout of GT2,s then I don't see how there's any chance of getting a decent turnout of GT1's- and having say a couple of GT1s dominating a field of largely GT3/GTC cars doesn't make for anything better than we have now.

These days there are many attractive opportunities for well funded teams on the international scene, so we need to open up British GT/Sportscars to club drivers who can't afford a Panoz, or even 997 GT3 Porsche, but could run a little Radical, Prosport or self built Special GT.

I think you've just re-invented Britcar....

More to the point, if you open it up to GT1 cars, then I don't see how the guys running Prosports, older 911's, etc are likely to turn out if they're likely to be blown away by someone turning up with a Saleen.

I think there's a lot wrong with British GT at the moment, but I don't think that either a return to GT1 or turning it into Britcar Mk2 is likely to be the answer.

I do seriously question the value of the Mondello race to the series. Yes, it takes British GT to a different audience to the rest of the series, but there's not a lot of point doing that if the competitors don't bother to go- and from memory, two out of the last three visits there have produced the smallest grid of the season, apart from the single-class overseas ventures like Pau or the GT2 boys running with the FIA GT last year

[KA]

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

Unless we start getting some decent GT3 entries (like the class reaching double figures - without huge numbers of Porsches!) then the championship might as well not exist.

I'm not sure I get your comment about numbers of Porsches- you might not like them, (I'm no great fan...), but whether the main class is GT2, GT3 or GTC, then I suspect that there will always be a lot of 911's, simply because they're the most widely available, competitive and reliable package on the market for GT racing at that level. The only way round it is to do what Ratel has done with FIA GT3, and limit the numbers of each model of car entered in the series.

There is, however, one word that stops all my ideas written above dead in their tracks and probably so many ideas from others, too. Money.

I think you've hit the nail firmly on the head there- the biggest problem that British GT may face is that it's trying to compete as a top-level national championship in an environment where most of the media attention, and much of the money, goes in the direction of the BTCC

[Truckosaurus]

The timings of the Pau and Mondello rounds seems especially poor.

Not only are they together on the calendar, they bookend the Le Mans meeting .

I think the (planned?) switch to a GT3/GTC structure for 2007 will be an improvement.

Teams can run GT3 cars in both BGT and the FIA GT3 or get hand-me-down GT3 cars and run in BGT only (perhaps as a stepping stone to FIA), or can run a GTC car as a theoretically more budget option. Hopefully the performance of the two classes is similar enough that the races can be run as a single points structure (ie. as if it was a single class), so it's easy for layman spectators and tv viewers to follow.

[boycie]

something really does need to happen with gt in britain, it's such a shame the way things currently stand.

as JAG says, you're as well to go and watch porsche cup

[renkadima]

Originally Posted by boycie

as JAG says, you're as well to go and watch porsche cup

And how may Porsche wins have there been, in all classes, so far this season? Er, three.

[SALEEN S7R]

I am all for having a LMP 3 class - if it is backed by the ACO/FIA. The idea of a LMP 3 class just being created with no real solid rules doesent appeal to me, if however a LMP 3 class was ever established on the International scene aimed at being somewhere between GT2 and GT1 cars in terms of Performance then I would welcome the idea. As it is though that isnt the case.

BTW perhaps Graham Goodwin or somebody can give a estimate as to how many GT2 cars we are likely to see for Snetterton?

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by KA

I'm not sure I get your comment about numbers of Porsches- you might not like them, (I'm no great fan...), but whether the main class is GT2, GT3 or GTC, then I suspect that there will always be a lot of 911's, simply because they're the most widely available, competitive and reliable package on the market for GT racing at that level. The only way round it is to do what Ratel has done with FIA GT3, and limit the numbers of each model of car entered in the series.

I can put up with numerous 911's in the field. But not when they make up nearly all of the grid. Championships always survive with lots of Porsches in them (look at FIA GT2 last year), but British GT must surely pride itself on the variety it used to fetch within it's grids. This is an example:

http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-02-photo.html

A very healthy grid, a nice number of Porsches but the series maintains the variety in entries that we're used to.

FIA GT3, like you say has a limited number of Porsches, and it had no problem at all with grid numbers and the Silverstone races were fantastic entertainment - maybe BGT's future lies within doing something towards getting the numbers raised in that class...?

[JAG]

There are plenty of well funded British teams and drivers, but they're in FIA GT3/GT2 and the LMS, so you have to be creative in how you bring the spectacle back to British GT's, on a budget.

I'm not sure how reliable the figures were, but I've read elsewere you can buy and run an elderly Viper GT1 for less than a front running 430 GTC or Panoz Esperante.

The key, as in French GT, is to balance the GT1 field, so an old Viper can compete for race wins against Saleens and 550's, even Astons should someone wish to enter.

I'm quite sure when running in a national championship, were money is tight, teams and drivers would embrace weight/restrictor penalties to create great racing.

The more competitive and attractive the racing is, the more teams will enter. These days it appears French GT is the place to race for the spill over from FIA GT's.

If your cars not competitive any longer, or your a gentlemen driver, French GT is the perfect place to race.

If you could bump the Moslers upto GT1 with a few performance breaks, add a Stealth, the Creation Listers, Factory Lister, Balfe Saleen, see if RML, GNM are interested in running a car etc., who knows what kind of grid you could put together.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by JAG

If you could bump the Moslers upto GT1 with a few performance breaks, add a Stealth, the Creation Listers, Factory Lister, Balfe Saleen, see if RML, GNM are interested in running a car etc., who knows what kind of grid you could put together.

Yes but if you do that JAG the series is moving away from the ACO/FIA regulations which IMO can only be a bad thing. To me British GT is really a stepping stone for teams that want to eventually end up racing in FIA GT or the LMS. British GT is a victim of its own sucess really, in recent years we have had teams like Scuderia Ecosse, Gruppe M, Balfe motorsport, RML, LNT, Lister all leave British GT and make the step up to the International sportscar scene whether it be with LMP's or GT class cars.

GB woudnt have anything like as many top International sportscar teams if it were not for British GT but British GT is really and truly a stepping stone for teams wanting to race on the International scene and who can blame them when you have 4 major European championships now in the shape of the International GT open, FIA GT Championship and the LMS and the FIA GT3 Championship? GB simply doesent have enough teams to have big numbers in British GT and on the International scene, the teams just dont have the budgets to run in multiple series most of the time. What would you rather have, lots of strong GB teams racing in International championships doing well and a slightly weaker BGT championship? Or would you rather have less teams doing well on the International scene but a slightly stronger BGT?

In the past BGT grids were stronger than they are now because there wasnt anything like as many International series as there is now for them to race in, back in 2000 for example all the teams had was the FIA GT Championship, Sportscar Racing world cup or the ALMS. The ALMS isnt really viable for a GB based team and the Sportscar racing world cup from what little I know of the series was a expensive series to race in and of course was LMP only.

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Yes but if you do that JAG the series is moving away from the ACO/FIA regulations which IMO can only be a bad thing. To me British GT is really a stepping stone for teams that want to eventually end up racing in FIA GT or the LMS. British GT is a victim of its own sucess really, in recent years we have had teams like Scuderia Ecosse, Gruppe M, Balfe motorsport, RML, LNT, Lister all leave British GT and make the step up to the International sportscar scene whether it be with LMP's or GT class cars.

GB woudnt have anything like as many top International sportscar teams if it were not for British GT but British GT is really and truly a stepping stone for teams wanting to race on the International scene and who can blame them when you have 4 major European championships now in the shape of the International GT open, FIA GT Championship and the LMS and the FIA GT3 Championship? GB simply doesent have enough teams to have big numbers in British GT and on the International scene, the teams just dont have the budgets to run in multiple series most of the time. What would you rather have, lots of strong GB teams racing in International championships doing well and a slightly weaker BGT championship? Or would you rather have less teams doing well on the International scene but a slightly stronger BGT?

In the past BGT grids were stronger than they are now because there wasnt anything like as many International series as there is now for them to race in, back in 2000 for example all the teams had was the FIA GT Championship, Sportscar Racing world cup or the ALMS. The ALMS isnt really viable for a GB based team and the Sportscar racing world cup from what little I know of the series was a expensive series to race in and of course was LMP only.

What's wrong with a "stepping stone" series having slightly older machinery? Someone could still enter FIA GT with a Lister, Viper or 550 if they wanted to, so what's wrong with such cars appearing in National championships like they do elsewhere in Europe?

As for moving away from ACO and FIA regs - GTC applies to neither of those rulebooks, whilst GT3 is nothing to do with the ACO, and in GT2 last year we had cars like the C5 and Ultima which aren't homologated internationally for the class. If they want only ACO/FIA homologated cars to appear then it's not surprising that support and grid numbers are infuriatingly low.

Also, if the series was organised better with more incentive to participate and perform then the budgets will be raised and people will want to compete there. I'm presuming that's the case in France...?

[SALEEN S7R]

The GT3 class isnt part of the ACO regulations, yet, one day soon I think the GT3 class will have a part to play with the ACO probably in the role of another GT3 championship to the LMS as the current FIA GT3 Championship is at full capacity, even if it doesent the GT3 regulations strech right across Europe as well as the Australian GT championship. The GT Cup class isnt based on any FIA/ACO regulations no but the class is for cars that are not FIA/ACO homlogated but are effecivly GT3 machines in terms of performance.

Also, one more reason why the BGT championship will never flourish is the BTCC. The TOCA package at the moment is too strong and it is a more attractive proposition for teams. Live TV coverage, big media exposure and a strong support bill. If the BTCC ever did die then I think the BGT championship would improve dramatically. No other nation has a touring car championship as strong as the BTCC that runs to BTC/Super 2000 regulations. IMO.

[TheNewBob]

The BTCC is strong, but should anyone ever take an interest in BGT's fortunes and help out with media and TV coverage then I think it can recover. Personally, given the choice I'd much rather attend a GT/F3 meeting than a BTCC meeting - for main events as well as support.

GT/F3 is actually a really good day out for some great national racing - but it's poorly promoted with BGT in a horrible state of affairs. Personally I find BTCC uninspiring and slow, whilst Porsche cups and FBMWs just bore the arse off me. At GT/F3 meetings we get future F1 stars, the caterhams are great to watch and those heritage GT's were fantastic.

[SALEEN S7R]

Oh I agree entirely, but it isnt me you need to convince. The greater British public like the BTCC format I am afraid, relatively short and exciting races with lots of incidents and cars they can identify with more because they are the cars they drive home from work every day. From most people that I know they tend to view GT racing as generally fairly dull with lots of gentleman drivers, yes they think the cars are fantastic but the racing generally isnt as close as the BTCC and there isnt as much action. Like it or not a big percentage of people like to see cars crashing into one another.

British F3 is really what is holding the series together at the moment, as you have said BF3 is where we see future F1 stars and of course faster cars than what we have with GT2 class machinery, people tend to like single seater racing more than tin top's generally, not just here in GB but the majority of the world. IMO. Until BGT changes its image I think it will continue to go on suffering Im afraid.

[renkadima]

Remember Powertour? BGT and BF3 with strong promotion and well organised race days? It was becoming so successful that it was beginning to threaten the BTCC and was therefore killed off.

The British public will quite happily watch BGT and BF3; it's just that they aren't being told about it, whereas BTCC is still live on the telly.

[SALEEN S7R]

Yes but for the last few years the British GT Championship has been run by SRO. The series was sucessful under the management of BMP if things are done properly, I personally am suprised that the British GT championship is in the state that it is at the moment with SRO managing the series. SRO do after all have a reputation for making championships rather than breaking them.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

I
BTW perhaps Graham Goodwin or somebody can give a estimate as to how many GT2 cars we are likely to see for Snetterton?

4 or 5 - still not nearly enough - less than 6 means half points btw!

GTC has worked well - and GT3 will start to grow soon (I'maware of several projects out there) but there is simply nobody out there with the budget or the inclination to race GT1 cars in the UK - the lack of willing parties to field GT2 cars though is very worrying - The response from the teams that could / might often indicate that they feel there is not enough track time, that the races are too short, that they don't like several of the circuits on the schedule (though the reintroduction of the MSV circuits has certainly helped) Mondello is particulalrly loathed and that all in all they feel very much the poor relation in the SRO stable - not my opinion but those of teams that are now, have been recently, or potentially could/ should be in the series.

[KA]

The thing I find most frustrating about British GT is that the potential of the series is clearly evident- even with all the problems you've mentioned, (to say nothing of the ProSport fiasco, etc), we've still got a series that managed to put 30 cars on the grid a few weeks ago at Donington- with the growth in GT3 that you suggested, if we could just get all of the half-dozen GT2's we've seen this year turning out at the majority of rounds, plus maybe another 4/5 cars, then we'd have a very healthy-looking series

[JAG]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Yes but if you do that JAG the series is moving away from the ACO/FIA regulations which IMO can only be a bad thing. To me British GT is really a stepping stone for teams that want to eventually end up racing in FIA GT or the LMS. British GT is a victim of its own sucess really, in recent years we have had teams like Scuderia Ecosse, Gruppe M, Balfe motorsport, RML, LNT, Lister all leave British GT and make the step up to the International sportscar scene whether it be with LMP's or GT class cars.

GB woudnt have anything like as many top International sportscar teams if it were not for British GT but British GT is really and truly a stepping stone for teams wanting to race on the International scene and who can blame them when you have 4 major European championships now in the shape of the International GT open, FIA GT Championship and the LMS and the FIA GT3 Championship? GB simply doesent have enough teams to have big numbers in British GT and on the International scene, the teams just dont have the budgets to run in multiple series most of the time. What would you rather have, lots of strong GB teams racing in International championships doing well and a slightly weaker BGT championship? Or would you rather have less teams doing well on the International scene but a slightly stronger BGT?

In the past BGT grids were stronger than they are now because there wasnt anything like as many International series as there is now for them to race in, back in 2000 for example all the teams had was the FIA GT Championship, Sportscar Racing world cup or the ALMS. The ALMS isnt really viable for a GB based team and the Sportscar racing world cup from what little I know of the series was a expensive series to race in and of course was LMP only.

BGT has to move away from FIA/ACO regs to survive, just as French GT has done.

How do you think the Vipers are competitive with 550's and Saleens over there?

Belcar seems to have found the right balance between homologated GT's and their own, unique specials.

If you adhere to strict ACO/FIA regs you'll force teams into buying the latest and greatest cars (Panoz and 430 in GT2 ATM), severly limiting the number of potential entrants.

Even the latest GT3 cars are extremely expensive to buy and run.

The series needs a two class structure, at most, with GT1 and GT2 classes.

Moslers, Stealths, Vipers, Marcos', 911 GT2's, Saleens, Listers etc. should be balanced, even if it means implementing very severe restrictions on the latest cars.

Meanwhile GT2 should incorporate your regular ACO/FIA GT2 machines, plus GT3 cars with restrictor/weight/fuel breaks to make them competitive with the GT2 cars, even if it mean pegging back the ACO/FIA GT2 cars a little.

More than two GT classes, when races are often no more than an hour long, is confusing for spectators and limits competition.

If a team is unhappy running a restricted 430GTC thats no quicker than a Morgan with performance breaks, maybe they are in the wrong series.

[Viper GTS-R***]

I would like it to see the GT1's back at British GT, just like they say with the RML Saleen, GNM Saleen, Balfe Saleen (britsh gt should be better for him), Lister Storm, Brockspeed Viper, ACB (Autoracing Club Bratislava) Viper, JMB 575, etc...
But just one thing, not all the British circuit's can let race such a big field with big GT1's including GT2's and GT3's... Only SIlverstone, Donington i think are avaible to do such a big race's.. or am i wrong?

[SALEEN S7R]

I think you are wrong with regards to British circuits not being able to let big GT1 cars race, after all back in 2002 we had Saleen's, Listers and Porsche GT2's racing at every round. Not sure if that is still the case but I have heard nothing to suggest otherwise.

[Viper GTS-R***]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

I think you are wrong with regards to British circuits not being able to let big GT1 cars race, after all back in 2002 we had Saleen's, Listers and Porsche GT2's racing at every round. Not sure if that is still the case but I have heard nothing to suggest otherwise.

Yeah i know that a few years ago there where a lot of GT1's.
But on a few little circuit's in Britain i'm not shure it will be save to have all those GT1 cars. I know in the year's 1998 untill 2002 there race'd a lot of BIG GT1's but if i look on the site http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo_natgt.html i just find picture's of race's on Donington, Silverstone and Spa (B). So i don't know at the moment if they (the GT1's) also race'd on for acample Oulton Park, Croft, Castle Combe,... and the other litlle circuit's..