Yellow flags on rally stages

[JohnD]

Can anyone explain the MSA's reasons for the new regs on yellows on rally stages? I had heard about this, and in my new Blue Book for 2013, R 24.4.5 and 25.6.4 sets it out in detail, that:
Yellow flags and ONLY yellow flags are to used.
They will be shown ONLY on the command of the Clerk or Stage Commander.
Drivers will proceed at reduced speed and be ready to stop.

I wasn't involved, but know people who were, in as a for instance the Granite City rally incident last year. A car in the ditch was being pushed out by spectators, when a second car went off and severely injured them all.

If a marshal had been there with a flag (which is another story) should thye not have shown, and waved the flag, to warn the second car? Are they now to just wave their warms in warning?

And in a similar situation what is the stage commander to do to stop the stage, when all he has is yellows?

John

[JimW]

Flagging is never going to be the solution to the situation you describe. This is a rally, not a circuit race.

Flags are only deployed to allow the dispatch of rescue units to deal with a confirmed injury accident and possibly take stage short-cuts which might bring us out in front of competing cars.

"Yellow and continue slowly" instead of ""red and stop there" is to fall in line with FIA rules.

Yes, I agree that is a retrograde step and likely to lead to unsafe conditions but that's progress.

Regards

Jim

[JohnD]

Thank you, Jim.
But the yellow flag is only to be used on the word of a supervisng official, not on the initiative of a marshal who has seen a severe hazard. What should a marshal to do?
John

[JimW]

What (s)he's told.

A yellow flag in stage rallying has no significance at an incident. Spectators will have to look out for themselves. If people wish to interfere (and one understands that and supports it), then they must accept that keeping a lookout and getting somebody to indicate to a following competitor that there is something happening ahead may well be part of keeping that look out.

Jim

[BertMk2]

Presumably the marshals either leg it to the nearest radio unit or wave down the next car through and get them to stop at the next radio point - then the stage commander can order the flags to be deployed throughout the stage.

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by JimW

"Yellow and continue slowly" instead of ""red and stop there" is to fall in line with FIA rules.

Yes, I agree that is a retrograde step and likely to lead to unsafe conditions but that's progress.

Regards

Jim

How is it any worse than the farcical situation that existed. If people are waving at a crew, they won't always get the message to slow for danger.

They've been in use in Irish rallying for over ten years, not sure what other countries use them, but the should be used in the WRC.

Using yellow flags is a small step forward, but how on earth will they always have time to phone the SC. You have to trust the judgment of the marshals at the location, they will know best.

Remember this on Wales Rally GB 2011, perfect example of why yellow flags are necessary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BR50J9JnGs

[JimW]

You're not seriously suggesting that flags should be deployed on rally stages are you? (Except to announce that a stage has been stopped.)



Jim

[broadrun96]

So a hole, as in the Wales video, or anything unseen that has developed along the course should just be allowed to destroy each coming car? Or a car half off on a curve should be allowed to be run into by each successive crew?
Personally would have thought WRC and other large rallies would run official radios to alert teams about major conditions but why would a flag system be a bad idea for larger events?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So a hole, as in the Wales video, or anything unseen that has developed along the course should just be allowed to destroy each coming car? Or a car half off on a curve should be allowed to be run into by each successive crew?
Personally would have thought WRC and other large rallies would run official radios to alert teams about major conditions but why would a flag system be a bad idea for larger events?

Normally once it's known there is a problem in a stage (say a massive pot hole for example) the co-driver is normally told about it at the stage arrival control. If you're in the stage after the hole has appeared but before message gets back that there is a problem then you're relying on marshals / spectators waving their arms about or just relying on what you can see. In your example of a car half off a stage then either spectators or marshals wave down the following cars whilst others either get the car all the way off the stage or back onto it and out of the way. A car half on half off isn't a good enough reason to stop a stage unless the crew are unable to get out of it.

A yellow flag is only used when the stage is effectively nullified - you can't run at a competitive speed and there is no 'green flag' concept so once the flags are deployed you're running at reduced speed until the end of the stage.

[broadrun96]

Thanks for clarifying that, assumed the yellows would be waved to get the crews attention not as a full stage nullification. Agree that the two scenarios should not stop a stage but alerting the following crews to use all due caution was all I was thinking.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Agree that the two scenarios should not stop a stage but alerting the following crews to use all due caution was all I was thinking.

That's usually done by frantic arm waving

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by JimW

You're not seriously suggesting that flags should be deployed on rally stages are you? (Except to announce that a stage has been stopped.)



Jim

Use like a local Yellow.

A Stage Stopped flag can be used to cancel stage

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Normally once it's known there is a problem in a stage (say a massive pot hole for example) the co-driver is normally told about it at the stage arrival control.

A yellow flag is only used when the stage is effectively nullified - you can't run at a competitive speed and there is no 'green flag' concept so once the flags are deployed you're running at reduced speed until the end of the stage.

Things happened to fast, to expect the incident to be reported to stage start quick enough. The video above shows what happens when this doesn't work.

Originally Posted by BertMk2

That's usually done by frantic arm waving

If you are on quick section, that is probably more dangerous and a waste of time. How will they know its not crazy fans waving for them to go faster?

There are many occasions when marshals can clear an incident but need to work on a live stage, essential to have someone with a yellow flag waving before the incident. Cars can lift off on the corner and then continue at full speed.

Its as much about protecting the marshals as it is anyone.

More than a bit reckless to not give the marshals the tools they need to safely run a stage.

One flag per junction/location is not alot to ask for.

I've done over ten years using yellow flags and wouldn't marshal again without them.

[The Dozer]

In Ireland we use the yellow flag and it works great . . . Every marshal point has a yellow flag and stationary yellow means danger ahead maybe car off proceed with caution . . . . Waved yellow danger ahead slow down prepare to stop . . . Simular to circuit racing works very well . . . Has saved a lot of accidents for very little extra cost . . . .As they say how much does a flag cost if it saves a life ?

[deley]

Originally Posted by The Dozer

In Ireland we use the yellow flag and it works great . . . Every marshal point has a yellow flag and stationary yellow means danger ahead maybe car off proceed with caution . . . . Waved yellow danger ahead slow down prepare to stop . . . Simular to circuit racing works very well . . . Has saved a lot of accidents for very little extra cost . . . .As they say how much does a flag cost if it saves a life ?

Thanks for the explanation - I had just checked the Motorsport Ireland regs and saw that they do have different regulations for rallying from those in the UK from the MSA.

So I think we have different regs (and hence different marshalling approaches) crossing in the posts above....

The original post was in reference to the use of yellow flag for rallying under the UK regs ... although as ever it is always interesting to see things from a different marshalling perspective.


Dave

[The Dozer]

Was just explaning what happens over here . . . .With a bit of planning and common sense from a marshall. . . A yellow flag can keep a stage running safe with no call to have to get in contact wit COC or stage commander unless the matter is serious and the sevices need to be called . . . .

[JohnD]

Don't be deceived by the wily Irish!

R 24.4.5 "...... Yellopw flags must be prominently displayed (held out steady not waved) ..."

No waving!
John

[JimW]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Thanks for clarifying that, assumed the yellows would be waved to get the crews attention not as a full stage nullification. Agree that the two scenarios should not stop a stage but alerting the following crews to use all due caution was all I was thinking.

No no no, absolutely not. The order to display yellow flags is given to all those holding them and totally shuts down a stage. Given that it is only done to allow the deployment of a rescue unit, it is highly likely to result in the loss of a stage.

Jim

[deley]

It is quite clear that we have two differing usages of yellows going one depending on whether it is in Ireland or UK.

In Ireland there are marshals with yellow flags at points within stages who can use the flag stationary or waved to alert cars as to hazards in stage, with a different flag/board at positions for signifying a stage stoppage.

In the UK the yellow flag is only placed at certain locations and only displayed (stationary) under instruction from the CoC or Stage Commander and is used to signify that a non-competing or rescue vehicle is on the stage ahead of them. Drivers to slow down etc etc and is effectively a stage stoppage (car movements may or may not actually have to stop depending on the nature of the incident and in accordance with marshals/officials instructions).

There are no other flags in stage in the UK regs.

So each has their own way of working but they aren't the same.

Dave

[Ian Briggs]

Rally GB regs stipulate that only Marshals that have read the yellow flag procedure(and signed to say they have) and wearing special tabards are allowed to display yellow flags, these are at planned points through the stage, and a lot of the course cars want to see that marshal, in the correct tabard, displaying the flag (this being a reet pita as you have to keep leaping in and out of the car when you are having your pre event bacon butty and cuppa!)

In Britain, only stages over a certain length and/or with short-cuts where a rescue unit could end up in front of a competetive car are Yelow flag stages. Thus most yellow flag locations are where a short cut emerges onto a stage.

Possibly in Irish Lanes the use of a yellow to warn of incidents is a good Idea, not sure about most British stages though.