Yellows? (merged)

[Adam43]

To pick up on a point Steve Neilsen made in another thread.

I thought I saw a number of drivers (most noteably Michael) overtake under yellow. There was about a lap and a bit when there were yeloows down the start finish and into turn 1. I'm sure I saw three or four cars overtake during this.

Do we have any photos or anything out there showing this? I don't think there were any replays.

On a similar issue, I presume that Montoya got a drive through because of the contact with Rubens, not overtaking under yellow (as was suggested on telly, but not cleared up).

[Sodemo]

I was listening to 5Live during the ad breaks, and they saw (as I did) TGF overtaking a Toyota under yellow flags.
They also mentioned that Montoya had passed 1 or 2 yellows without getting penalised.

Why weren't Micheal and Montoya dragged in for these?:confused:

[Asp]

Depends, looking closely at Mikey's pass on Panis he could well have been (just) ahead at the yellow flag. I still think that's not on - the drivers should be slowing in advance so they're not battling at all when they reach the yellow and sufficiently slowed - but, whoever was ahead at the start of the yellow-zone obviously maintains the position.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Asp
Depends, looking closely at Mikey's pass on Panis he could well have been (just) ahead at the yellow flag.

Had he passed the following green though?

[DSM]

The zone covered by the Yellow started at the end of the main straight and he was well past Panis by the time he got there. The following Green is not relevant

[Heebeegeetee]

I think it was fair with MS. It was in spray, and I reckon by the time the flag was visible he was just ahead of the other car. Plus, the other car was between him and the flag for most of the time. Can't comment on JPMs flags, but it was 50-50 between him and Rubens at least, if not more in favour of JPM, IMO.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
I thought I saw a number of drivers (most noteably Michael) overtake under yellow. There was about a lap and a bit when there were yeloows down the start finish and into turn 1. I'm sure I saw three or four cars overtake during this.

Schumaker's overtake was, as I saw it, completed before the single waved yellow, which was at the entry to turn one

[Adam43]

Originally posted by DSM
The zone covered by the Yellow started at the end of the main straight and he was well past Panis by the time he got there. The following Green is not relevant

I wondered by this. The straight on shot is difficult to judge when someone has overtaken.

Also I thought there was a yellow at the exit of the last corner (the oval banked corner) and also a yellow near the breaking point for turn 1.

I have to admit I am unsure, which is why I started the thread. To see if anyone knew.

A points I don't understand. How do you define the 'zone'. Either as the race director or the driver.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Dave Brand
Schumaker's overtake was, as I saw it, completed before the single waved yellow, which was at the entry to turn one

Cheers. This is what I reckon.

The doubt I have is that the straight on shot we had is difficult to judge from and a couple of shots later I thought there was a yellow before the one at T1 too. Whether it was there when Michael went past I don't know. I presume not other wise there would have been a penalty.

[DSM]

Adam, the zone covered is from the first yellow to the first green. I didn't see a yellow before the one at the end of the main straight.

[Zaius]

What irks me the most about this, is that I saw a couple cars with a clear passing line into turn 1 back off at the last second when seeing the yellow. If everyone had raced as if that flag didn't exist, it would have been a much more trivial issue.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by DSM
Adam, the zone covered is from the first yellow to the first green

Thanks, I know this.

I misunderstood what heebee said. I thought he was saying that passing the green wasn't important, but what he actually said was that Michael passed the Toyota before the zone. Which is why I questioned what the 'zone' was - I assumed it was at one end defined by the green so I couldn't understand why the green wasn't important.

I didn't see a yellow before the one at the end of the main straight.

this is really the bit that I think is most important to the situation, which is why I wanted to know if anyone else has seen it. (However it seems it only happened in my world!)

[Gt_R]

I watched the heli shot replay of Michael overtaking Panis, and Michael had well past Panis before reaching the yellow. So it's a no doubt situation.

Din't see the Montoya stuff...so ain't gonna comment.

And from what i understand..e "zone"'s from the first yellow to the next green flag u see waving isn't it?

[Mark Webber]

he was beside panis going into yellow and on the inside it was MS corner

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
The doubt I have is that the straight on shot we had is difficult to judge from

It's difficult to be completely sure, but the move certainly started well before the flag.

and a couple of shots later I thought there was a yellow before the one at T1 too. Whether it was there when Michael went past I don't know. I presume not other wise there would have been a penalty.

I don't remember seeing a yellow at the preceding post, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one - as I understand it, in F1 a waved yellow isn't normally preceded by a stationary, although the clerk may call for it if there is a visibility problem.

[J.McClane]

Shu overtook as the yellow was being waved. Infact it was being waved for quite a while before he even had a look at the Toyota.

Why he wasn't done for this I don't know. One rule for some i guess.

[gttouring]

I saw shumi along side at the yellow, and in the mist slowing more to pull inside wasn't a good idea- Now montoyas penalty was ****- he just raced hard and Rubinho got the bad end of- the outside line in a shoddy track surfaced corner...-

[Phoenix1]

Michael should of been punished he clearly outbraked the Toyota exactly under a yellow. If Michael did not see the Yellow he needs his eyes testing and if he did does he not realise that the flags are not there for fun there are there to protect Marshalls and others alike. It was not just Michael and it has not just been him in the past however it is a safety rule I mean you look at say Montoya beening penalised for a racing incident and other cars being done for speeding in the pitlane but undertaking under yellows it's wrong stupid and above all dangerous maybe they should have banners says 'kill your speed, not a marshall'. I'm so glad there was a CART race to watch after, proper rules and racing. Maybe next year it will be renamed Ferrari One.

[Adam43]

Well I think I'll wait for the highlights (shame I didn't record the live bit, because you miss some stuff in highlights).

I am also keeping an eye out for photos on the web.

[esorniloc]

If it is shown that Schu did pass under the yellow on a photo or something, is it possible for an appeal from someone?????

[Damon]

It was an overtake under yellow as far as I could see, clear as day. Yes I'm biased but it was sure as hell more clear cut than Montoya's penalty. The race was a farce. Surel Michelin should have got their act together with their rain tyres by now?!

[Splatz the Cow]

err... those who say he completed the move before reaching the yellow are correct. If the rules state you can't overtake when the yellows come out, he's done for, but I beleive the rules state that you cannot pass at the yellow or beyond until you reach a green, if you can get the guy before reaching the yellow flag AS MICHAEL DID, then all is well and good. No problem here for MS then.

And if folks need to verify my objectivity here, check my past posts; I am a passinate Montoya supporter.

Bad call on the penalty he received I think would not it be better to have deferred judgement about that till after the race. They ruined his race and no appeal can give it back after a stop-and-go. I am not sure wether he does or doesn't deserve a penalty, the ten grid rule should have been in effect here.

PS. Has anyone but Montoya been punished in this way? It's very disappointing. I thought the FIA handled the Michelin affair particular well, but this was pretty average - lacking in insight and most importantly, patience.

It was a clumsy effort by Montoya, but people have got away with much worse, and I am referring to a number of drivers.

[avsfan733]

Originally posted by J.McClane
Shu overtook as the yellow was being waved. Infact it was being waved for quite a while before he even had a look at the Toyota.

Why he wasn't done for this I don't know. One rule for some i guess.

Sorry but it doesn't matter when they yellow is aved, only where. This isn't Nascar with full course yellows only. And the constant moaning about MS getting special treatment are rediculous...remember Germny? That was probably more Montoyas fault then this one, but no penalty and that one was on MS. Its just different stewards seeing things different ways. It happens, its called racing

[Woolley]

Except that the problem the marshals experience with FIA flags is there is no preceding stationary yellow as in Britain (other countries?)

You can have the yellow literally a couple of feet before the incident and the green 200 yards afterwards. This means you can legally overtake virtually right up to the indicent site, but not for some distance after it where, of course, there is no danger to anyone. Madness.

[EERO]

I believe that the Marshall's station in question at the entry to Turn One was the first after the Start Line. Barrichello's car was at the exit of Turn Two. Yes the distance is short, but it seems to have been the obvious spot to implement the Caution Zone.

Yes we have stationary yellows here.