Intervening when there's no marshals?

[graeme]

I was at a test day a few days ago and was in the paddock when a car slammed into the barriers a few yards away from me. I looked around for marshals coming to help the driver but there nearest were a few hundred yards away and on the other side of the (still live) track (only every other posted was manned, as is usually on test/track days). I thought about going to the car, which was off the track, but then thought I could get the biggest *******ing/kicked out the meeting/etc (this being, to mis-quote Mallory, "not the friendly circuit"). The driver eventually got out and officals turned up in an un-marked car by coming through the paddock at high speed . But should I have gone to switch of the ignition, checked the driver was concious, etc?

[petestenning]

Graeme interesting point, but i think there may be insurance complications, someone may advise better than me. Were you signed on at all?

[graeme]

I was signed on as a driver and had Nomex on (albeit tied 'round my waist). Also a first aider and done a couple of days on the bank.

[Stephen Green]

My intial thoughts are that you should not get involved as you were not signed on as a marshal and therefore I doubt you would have been covered by insurance.

[Fred Bromley]

Stephen Green is correct, DO NOT get involved unless you are signed on as a Marshal. THere a legal as well as insurance considerations.

[Adam43]

I agree with that, but it does make you think. Practically you could be saying 'let him die'. Melodramatic I know, but...

and what about all those drivers who have stopped to aid others in the past. Especially Dr JP who seemed to stop at every crash during his F1 spell

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Fred Bromley
Stephen Green is correct, DO NOT get involved unless you are signed on as a Marshal. THere a legal as well as insurance considerations.

I agree, and the other thing is that you could have become a victim of an out of control car from the live track or from a speeding intervention vehicle not expecting "extras" on the track.

[mark_l]

Ex-Formula Renault driver Kirsten Kolby had a huge crash at Goodwood, during a mid week test session, a few years ago. She rolled the car and with the roll hoop stuck in the soft ground she was unable to extricate herself. It was a passing competitor that dragged her from the blazing car, she sustained minor burns that luckily healed.

The were apparently no marshals in the vicinity, if it was not for the other competitor on track she would of died.

There maybe be insurance implications in assisting when signed on as driver, but surely no one could begrudge the "good samaritan" trying to help.

[Stephen Green]

Until there is another major incident, after which time legal issues come to the fore. Sorry, but I stick to my original comments that you don't get involved.

At any test or track day the circuit or organisers supply emergency cover which should conform to MSA or legal requirements. They are there to deal with the incident. If, as a driver on track at the time of the accident you decide to help, that is in my opinion a different matter.

[ooo-arr27]

I was watching on a Thursday test day at Castle Combe (Tower to be precise) When a car hit the barriers hard. It is extremely worrying / frustrating not being able to help and seeing a driver in obvious agony.
For test days at Combe there is generally one marshal who is on the spectator side of the fence (usually sat in their car)and has control of the flags and a walkie talkie. With this particular incident i remember the rescue van took three - four minutes to arrive at the scene, which is along time when you can see someone in pain.

[S_Morrell]

I had an interesting conversation (in writing) a couple of years ago with the folks at Brands Hatch Leisure (as was). I was concerned about the instructions given to trackside marshals on these 'mid-week' sessions at my local circuit - Oulton Park. In short, marshals were not permitted to leave their post until after the last car had left the circuit and was safely in the pit lane.

I therefore asked if this was still the case if a driver/rider was lying on the floor nearby without a patent airway or if they were trapped in a blazing car. I was told that the instructions were correct.

It seemed that they were (rightly) concerned about any comeback if a marshal were injured whilst dealing with an incident that still had traffic circulating (whether red flagged or otherwise). However, I felt it put the marshals in an extremely awkward situation as I knew I would not be able to stand by and wait until the circuit was 100% clear without rendering assistance (after a risk assessment of the situation of course - I'm not suicidal)

I don't know if that is still the case given the recent changes but I thought it would make interesting - if not sobering reading.

Regards
Si

[andrew_powell98]

Never knew it was like that at test days. It sounds awful but until there is a serious incident nothing will change. It is so hard to stand and watch and do nothing, maybe there will be times when a marshal will have to disobay the rule if it is so serious. As Si says it is risk assesment and none of are sucidal out there and safety must come first.

[Dutch chap]

I was about to make some remarks earlier about Dutch laws, which are about being sued when you do not assist someone who needs help (you’d better give assistance!). I decided not to, because I think I’ve made enough comments by now how things in Holland are different from the UK (pay attention please: I’m not saying better, just different!)

By now, I feel I must contribute to this.

Come on, we all know when something is terribly wrong! A car going off, or into a barrier does not always worrie us (spelling?). But if there is something completely wrong, meaning a big crash and no marshals around to do something about it (‘it’ = the driver, you know, the one we would like to survive) we would act. And perhaps our acting would not be within the rules. Well, I would not care about rules in those circumstances.

[flagwaver]

The worrying thing of course is that all the clubs are happy for us to do it(go out to stricken cars whilst other cars are still going round) at the weekend when we are not being paid to be there. Makes you think what would happen if Donnington goes to paid marshals

[Woolley]

The difference of course is numbers. It says above that track days have one marshal every other post, whereas at most race meetings there must be twice as many...

[Micky.H]

At lot has been said about the legal / insurance aspect. But at the end of day, if a serious incident happens, would your own morals allow you to stand and watch, or to assist and possibly save a life (all dependent on your own 'competence' though).

[goforit500]

Q "Come on, we all know when something is terribly wrong! A car going off, or into a barrier does not always worrie us (spelling?). But if there is something completely wrong, meaning a big crash and no marshals around to do something about it (‘it’ = the driver, you know, the one we would like to survive) we would act. And perhaps our acting would not be within the rules. Well, I would not care about rules in those circumstances"

Hear, Hear !!

Even travel insurance recognises that insurance is valid when risking ones own life to save another !!

[mark_l]

If we are all so worried about insurance implications, how come we try to assist at road traffic collisions.

What insurance covers us then?

[Ian Smith]

ISNT IT A SAD INDICATION OF THE TIMES AND AMERICANS LITIGATION CULTURE THAT ANYONE WITH THE SKILLS OR QUALIFICATIONS TO HELP SOMEONE IN A LIFE THREATENING SITUATION, MUST STOP AND THINK ABOUT THE LEGAL SITUATION BEFORE ACTING TO HELP POSSIBLY SAVE A LIFE.
WELL AWAY FROM A RACE CIRCUIT I DONT THINK I COULD HOLD BACK - SO SUE ME :BAG: :P

[Tracey]

Hmmmmm. A very difficult one. I can see why there is so much concern about being sued (sad world that it is). However, I feel very strongly that if I saw a driver involved in a serious accident (racing/testing/on the road) I would do all I could to keep him/her alive. I am quite prepared to face court if I use the skills I have been taught and am qualified to use, rather than to end up attending a coroners court to explain why I did nothing and let someone die.

I have heard cases of people who have performed CPR, and later been sued for breaking the casualty's rib(s) - something that I have been told is almost unavoidable if it's done right - there's gratitude for you!

[Jim Lamb]

Whilst I would err on the side of caution in any situation as outlined above if you act in the manner of a 'Good Samaritan' and within the guidelines of any training you have received (i.e First Aid @ Work, etc). There would be no comeback for assisting a stricken Individual.

You should always consider FIRST your own personal safety in any situation.

We have yet in this country to venture down the dangerous path of acting against the Good Samaritan (As USA). To the best of my knowledge there has only been one instance of Litigation in the UK against members of a Voluntary Aid Society, i.e SJAB, Red Cross, under these kind of circumstance and the case failed, as they acted in the capacity of 'Good Samaritan' and acted within the bounds of their respective training.

Regards, Jim lamb

[peakperformance]

I have followed this thread with interest and will now pass on something my daughter told me around the time of the first post.
Approx 10 miles from where we live there are some major road works, the sister of a friend of my daughters (sorry for the long descriptions but I am avioding any names of people or roads)was driving through the road works when the traffic in front came to a stop, seconds after, her car was hit from behind by a lorry which pushed her into the lorry infront and her car caught fire, she had an injury to her head which was bleeding and could not open the doors of her car.The driver of the lorry which hit her from behind came to the side of the car first and when she asked for help getting out his reply was something on the lines of " I cannot help you because if you are hurt/injured you or your insurance company will sue me " the driver of the lorry in front was thank god, did not think about any legal aspects and helped her through a broken window.
My personal view is if someone needs help, trackside or roadside if I am the only one there then I will give that help (signed on or not). Just flicking the legal disc over for a minute, if an incident happened in-front of me,I am the only one there and I am qualified to help (ie red badge) did not, and a life was lost, could I be sued for manslaughter?
We are in a system where people are prepared to sue for any reason,the no win no fee system seems to rule, I wonder how many people would take legal action if they had to pay upfront and risk all in a court case.

[peakperformance]

Sorry for the spelling errors

[Woolley]

Personally speaking, if there was no other assistance available and there was a threat to life, I could not refrain from giving what assistance I could. However, the most important consideration must be your own safety. Emergency services shouls have ingrainged into them the folowing words:

THE ONLY THING WORSE THAN A CASUALTY IS TWO CASUALTIES.

Do nothing that puts you in any danger, and when you've achieved that then, and only then, you may do what you can for the casualty.

However if there is 'proper' help available - Marshals on a circuit, emergency services on the road, act only under guidance from them and don't intervene unless specifically requested.

Finally, if the driver in the circumstances that started this post is unhurt, or at least not in danger or in need of urgent intervention then you should not consider going trackside under any circumstances.

Emergency Services final words are always 'Stay Safe'. It's not a hope, it's an instruction.

[graeme]

The problem is (well, was) that how do you know if the driver is unhurt - in this instance, the car was obscured by the tyre wall he'd just half-rolled into at 100mph+. He did get out unaided after maybe two or three minutes - I wasn't really thinking about first aid - more switching off ignition, leading (a disorientated driver) to safety, etc.

As for stopping your race car on track, I'm fairly sure I've been told (ARDS course) not to do this - but there are of course situations when it might seem a good idea.