Marshals - respect!!

[archaic gold]

I have read many messages/comments about respect to be shown to Marshals by Competitors/Drivers/Clerks of the Course/Chief Marshals etc etc; need I go on.
PLEASE can we have respect to Marshals by Marshals?? Without going into details, a lot of time was spent at a very recent Race Meeting where One Marshal, in an Official Capacity was extremely threatening to a Female Marshal who was carrying out her duties to the best of her capalbilities.
This can NOT be tolerated!!
We are ALL volunteer Marshals, having a fun day within the remit of the conditions and weather. One situation we do not wish to see is in-fighting within the 'ranks'.
I am very apologetic to go into print over this, but I feel so strongly about this it must be aired.
For those who do not realise my pseudynm, I am Chairman of the British Motorsports Marshals Club, Southe-East Region, and I must protect those that are Members of the Club, especially those within my Region.
I can only add that I have the full support of my fellow colleague, Chairman of the Southern Region.

[Stephen Green]

Can I just add to this that we do NOT want the names of those concerned being banded around in this forum. I think Gerry would agree that this should be a wide ranging discussion regarding the issue of respect and not become a place in which to slander other people. I am aware of the situation (or parts of it) and understand fully why Gerry has chosen to make this post, but be guided that I will delete any post, or possibly the whole thread, should it even hint at specific peoples names!

Please respect these wishes if you wish the thread to continue.

[Clive]

Couldn't agree more, either with my 'offical cap' as training officer for BMMC South Midlands, or as an individual in my own right!

[b1ackcr0w]

I feel there is an issue of leadership and teaching that arises here. I have commented in more detail elsewhere on this matter. But I am very strongly of the opinion that the kind of scenario Gerry mentions illustrates my point.

I think that shouting admonishments at somebody who is not performing at the level you are expecting, is a direct result of a persons frustration at their own failure to teach or lead properly.

I will openly confess that in practical matters like marshalling, I'm not naturally competant. The challenge and reward of marshalling for me is to succeed despite my nature. I have been exceedingly lucky in this respect in that I have had a number of incredibly patient tutors and mentors on the bank. Their one common attribute is not one of them has raised their voice to me. Instead opting to discretely point out what I did wrong, then how to do it right next time.

[sib668]

In the matter of marshalling I dont think anybody is trully competant as you never know what is going to happen. Anybody who shouts, threatens of otherwise adversly affects what we are trying to do, which is enjoy ourselves and make things just that little bit better needs to take a good look in the mirror and realise what a silly person they are..

I could use worse language but for the sake of decency and our moderators fingers i'll stop with silly.......

As archaic said we all volunteer, so lets get along with each other please.. With the shortage of marshals as it is the last thing we need is somebody not coming back trackside because of one person

[blackhands]

The fact that the marshal 'abused' is female is not an issue and should not have been mentioned. Of course there is absolutely no reason for verbally abusing anyone - the fact that they are a volunteer is also absolutely irrelevant. In mitigation, and I don't know the facts of this specific case, there may be occasions where it is necessary to adopt a different appraoch if lives are in danger and the situation demands it. But these occasions must be very few and infrequent.

Unfortunately, as in many voluntary positions, there will be those who rise towards the top, not because of any ability, but because they are willing. These people may not have either the natural ability or training in the necessary people skills to do their job properly. If they are habitually verbally abusing people then they are not wanted and marshals should refuse to work with them.

[shjo558]

This is a really difficult issue. When I was a trainee (yawn) I had a problem with 1 marshal who objected to both trainees and female marshals.Bad combination for me! I was very very close to walking off post by lunch time and by the end of the day I was quite convinced that I would not ever return to a race track.

However, after deciding that one bad apple would not spoil my enjoyment of motorsport I returned more assertive than ever.

I am now an IO and try to involve trainees as much as possible, always being open honest and willing to answer those 'daft' questions and serious questions. However, I would like to see some form of feedback from trainees when they are a bit more experienced. No one has ever critised me to my face, and as I am far from perfect I would imagine that I could improve my training/morning briefing/marshaling technique etc etc but need some guidance.

If an issue does arise on post, I quietly discuss the problem with the marshal/s, and look for a better way to do things the next time. Shouting at someone at that very moment of danger is fine in my opinium as it immediately draws attention to a potentially serious incident. However, a de-briefing should be quiet and adult - shouldn't it?

[Stoowert]

Once again, it all comes down to communcation - no, I'm not talking about land-lines and hand signals, for once, but just one human being, dressed in orange getting his point across to to another similar creature. In my experience, the best way to NOT get your views accepted is to shout and scream! For example, if you notice that your blue-flagger is, say, leaving their flag-wave too late, a simple quiet word will bring them round. It's often a case of lack of self-confidence. I had an experience a few years ago when I was observing on an oval. The cars were passing about 12 feet from us at speeds in excess of 220mph. It was clear that my fellow observer was not concentrating. It was a very long, nervous session but afterwards I had a very stern word with them, getting my point across forcefully, but with quiet, cold import.
I had a very unfortunate time at Le Mans this year as our team leader was prone to acts of random panic and over-reaction, plus many other bad traits you could put into a "before" part of a training video! Let's just say that my fellow traveller and I had plenty to talk about on the drive home!

Just think "Why am I here, and why am I doing this" and please be patient with novices, of either sex. They are our future...

End of rant number12,646!

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by archaic gold

...a lot of time was spent at a very recent Race Meeting where One Marshal, in an Official Capacity was extremely threatening to a Female Marshal who was carrying out her duties to the best of her capalbilities...

Not intending to defend the offending Marshal, but sometimes it is "needed" (I use this word carefully) to waken somebody up.
I had to revert to this unpleasant way during the big FRenault WS crash at Zolder. The guy just froze after the first impact. After my fall out, he resumed duty as normal.
Obviously, I apologised afterwards for my not so professional way.

[M Greenslade]

Twenty years ago a certain I/O at the GP treated me in such a bad way I have never marshalled at Silverstone since and have no intention of ever doing so again, it is there loss not mine. Since then I have become an Ex Obs and trust that I treat people the way I expect to be treated, one or two idiots can spoil it for everyone else - Balders

[b1ackcr0w]

I'm reading into the original post that the offensive shouting was definitely not in the safety interests of the marshal concerned.

It would obviosly be PC nonsense to say that under no circumstances should you ever shout at a colleague. But there is a world of difference between shouting at somebody to make them aware of an impending danger, and out of incident bullying. I think we all know the difference, and can all agree that there is a minimum standard of behaviour required in our hobby that the person mentioned in Gerry's post clearly fell well below.

[Davie-c]

Originally Posted by shjo558

When I was a trainee (yawn) I had a problem with 1 marshal who objected to both trainees and female marshals.Bad combination for me! I was very very close to walking off post by lunch time and by the end of the day I was quite convinced that I would not ever return to a race track.

Thank god you didn't do that or we would all miss your grumpy moods when you camp at Knockhill. See you at the Touring Cars

[icklimp]

Originally Posted by blackhands

The fact that the marshal 'abused' is female is not an issue and should not have been mentioned.

I don't entirely agree, a few years ago a scrutineer took it upon himself to be exceedingly nasty to me and it was clear that as I was young and female he felt my opinion (and the 8 years of experience I had at that point) counted for nothing. About an hour later I was proved right and got an extremely grudging apology, mainly because the drivers who witnessed it complained.

If she was abused partly because she was female it is relevant, but I don't know if that is the case here because I don't know the facts.

What I do know from experience is that some men feel they can 'get away' with shouting at a woman and may not do the same thing to a male colleague.

In any case though, you're right it isn't acceptable to talk to anyone like that unless it is an extreme circumstance, like a safety issue, and even then I'm sure that can be done in a way that doesn't come across as abusive.

[shjo558]

Hopefully I'll be able to camp, grass permitting. If not your going to have Big Al and I in yer van!

[Stephen Green]

I don't think the fact that it was a woman had a great deal to do with it....

[CombeMarshal]

On a Lighter note, I have never been made to feel anything less than welcome anywhere I've Marshalled (even though thats not many places!!)
The best thing to do, If your not happy Is speak to the Cheif Marshal of the circuit, I'm sure they would go out of there way to sort out any problems, after all, they don't want to loose Marshals and we don't need no Hittler's!!!!
Lee

[CombeMarshal]

And I think the only thing that should be shouted is "GET DOWN"!

[Gridlock]

I do believe this is not the subject to be discussed in this open and public arena especially as it appears to be originated by the BMMC Chairman.
It does very little for marshals and marshaling. Whilst I do not support any form of bad manners or behavior during my duties on post this is a subject that should be dealt with internally within the club with the committee taking appropriate diciplinary action. Whilst Stephen says he does not want names mentioned I would respectfully suggest that this thread be closed and the chairman and committee of the BMMC take appropriate action with the individuals concerned. Please let it stop here.

[Stephen Green]

Gridlock, just a small point of order here. It was the Chairman of the SE Committee that started the thread, not the Chairman of the BMMC.

Lets say I will be watching the thread very closely and any deviation from the wider aspect of the theme will cause the thread to be closed immediately.

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

I do believe this is not the subject to be discussed in this open and public arena especially as it appears to be originated by the BMMC Chairman.
It does very little for marshals and marshaling. Whilst I do not support any form of bad manners or behavior during my duties on post this is a subject that should be dealt with internally within the club with the committee taking appropriate diciplinary action. Whilst Stephen says he does not want names mentioned I would respectfully suggest that this thread be closed and the chairman and committee of the BMMC take appropriate action with the individuals concerned. Please let it stop here.

Can I just say, that I totally agree with your opinion, and I believe totally in free speech, I just wished it to be known to ALL that anyform of verbal bullying will NOT be tolerated.
In my duties as a CofC I have always asked for as many reports to be made to me as possibly can be submitted. This gives the ammunition that Competitors are totally aware they are being 'Observed' at all times.
In this case I was hoping that it was coming across that Senior Members of the Marshalling fraternity were very much aware of the goings-on within Circuits and therefore can take the appropiate action.
I was very apologetic in my original starting of the thread that I was reluctant to take the action I did but I felt that a certain amount of support MUST be given to Members that felt they were aggreived.
Please give me credit when I say that I am in posession of the full facts, but can not broadcast them here. Sorry!!.

[Gridlock]

Sorry that I got titles and organisation wrong. But it does not alter my opinion. I for one do not want to know details or names. However I believe that for some it may raise curiosity and thereby cause further rumours and bad feeling.
I assume that if all the facts are known appropriate action has been taken and the matter closed. I have done some silly things but have nothing but respect for the way I have been treated. If we want to continue the theme of respect for each other may I suggest this is not the way to start.

[Stephen Green]

I agree which is why I said the thread could continue in a 'wider vein' and not specifically about the incident to which some are referring.

Let me reitterate to all members that if this becomes specific to one event or, names are mentioned, the thread will immediately be closed and deleted.

[Clive]

I agree with Gridlock, but my interest/curiosity is aroused as to the details and whether it was resolved correctly? Like all members of the BMMC I have a vested interest in my hobby and want to ensure it is not brought into disrepute by anybody, which includes me as well, I hasten to add, although apart from getting a tad inebriated occasionally on the camp site, I hope I conduct myself appropriately and show respect to all. I know if I need to speak to someone on my team I do it quietly, and in their ear alone - because that is how I would want it done to me should the situation arise!