What's wrong with Williams?

Led ZeppF1 · 13 Jul 2004, 05:42 (Ref:1034957)

BMW-Williams have admitted they have major problems to solve after their second consecutive uncompetitive race.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/3885249.stm

Looking at the results of the current season, I honestly feel that Williams is one team that has vastly underperformed.

The FW26, with its radical nose and the consistently powerful BMW engine looked as a winner, but after 11 races the team is languishing with 42 points and out-performed by both Renault and BAR. And now Mclaren threat their 4th position.

So, what's wrong with Williams?:confused:

climb · 13 Jul 2004, 06:26 (Ref:1034968)

Not an easy question.
At the beginning of 2003 FW25 were considered a disappointment, and the main criticism mad eby Frankie was "this car is too conservative, we should have dared more".
This year there's been a radical change, and the car is accused for being too radical, so what should they do?

The evolutionary/revolutionary duel is always on, and it is often conditioned by fashions (= what does who win)
Last year Ferrari leaded the revolutionary school, this year they passed on the opposirte side.
What is not changed is that they keep winning, what ever choice they do is the right one, the contrary for others.

Gt_R · 13 Jul 2004, 06:39 (Ref:1034973)

It's not particularly anything "WRONG" with Williams IMO, but rather, in every aspect, every area, there is somebody else who is probably doing a better job. And it sums up to make Williams look bad.

Firstly, Williams seems to be having problems with personnels. Head's decision to shift north, drivers who signed for other teams, the departure of Willis in recent years, poor relationship between drivers & employers, a new design direction in the nose, movement of personnels, and then the uncertainty for next season (who the new drivers are, talks of Frank leaving).

All this may not seem important, but if you consider the more cosy environment enjoyed by Renault and BAR, not to mention Ferrari, the foundation..the human factor.. of the team is already not too stable.

And this season's car seem to have limited developement potential, or it seems that the team still couldn't fully exploit what they have. Is the idea of the new nose understood? A design change as big as this which heavily affects the aerodynamics of the car and the structural/handling characteristics may cause some problems if the team could not fully grasp and adapt.

Then there's the "weakness" from the drivers. Ralf isn't performing too well and is having difficulty with Head. Inconsistent and poor performance is worsen by the crash. JPM isn't performing at his full potential either and always seem to be unhappy with things, and despite what he says, seem to be just waiting for his move to Mclaren.Both doesn't seem very motivated given the environment and car they have. And Gene? So far disappointing.

The team seem to lack cohesion and communication..the team seems to be a little "messy" and everybody just trying to get on with their own things... and a hiccup can easily throw a team in such a highly competitive environment off rails.

Hopefully, with a year's experience with the new design of cars, coupled with half a season of the team settling down after the personnel reshuffle (although the drivers have less time to settle), and getting the new windtunnel to run at full speed before year end, would suggest a stronger foundation for Williams to step into the future.

climb · 13 Jul 2004, 06:51 (Ref:1034975)

Good points Gt_R

PaulSands · 13 Jul 2004, 06:59 (Ref:1034978)

The instability coming from the fact that JPM was never going to be there after this season and the doubt about Ralf can't have helped. No matter how professional either driver likes to think they are I would doubt very much that they have been giving Williams 100%

Super Tourer · 13 Jul 2004, 07:46 (Ref:1034995)

I think the 2004 season has been a bit like a roll of the dice for Williams, look at the factors.

1. Running a radical car - this either works or it doesn't, there is no middle ground, regardless of how much testing you do, it's always gamble.

2. Facing the 2004 season with one driver they knew was leaving the team and the other who was likely to leave. Sub-conciously this was bound to create an unstable environment within the team.

3. But, I believe the main problem lies way back. One critcism levelled at FW and PH is they are too ruthless with people, if they ask for more, they allegedly get shown the door which may have been a good strategy 10/15 years ago, but the key people in F1 have become fewer, and more instrumental in a teams success.

It's a sorry coincidence for Williams that the departure of Newey at the start of 1998, was the catalyst for the drought of race wins and championships. Similarly, this years BAR could have been a Williams if Geoff Willis were still at the team, but once again they 'let him go'.

Essentially, Willams have let too many people walk out the door to deliver success for other teams, for which they have paid and continue to pay a heavy price. Should they fall behind McLaren in the championship this year, it will cost the team millions in lost FIA benefits, that would easily have paid the Geoff Willis' of the world what they are worth.

deeks6 · 13 Jul 2004, 07:57 (Ref:1035001)

Beautifully put Gtr,

Whenever something is not appearing to work well, it will be the system to which they work. A system will fall down very quickly if one or (usually) more of the people are not 100% committed to that system. I doubt whether there is anything wrong with the design of the car - it has shown to be quick enough on most occaisions this year up until the last couple of GP's. They are not having many mechanical failures, so the build is OK. But they have gone backwards it seems...why?
Consider this - both drivers have been unhappy (at times or in JPM's case ALL the time), they have made many mistakes and blamed the team and the car and they are committed to elsewhere next year. Add to that, the team is probably "hiding" things from them now as they gear up for next year so they don't take the technology elsewhere. This all adds up to a disaster - hardly rocket science. The crew at Ferrari will take a bullet for MS...do you think the Williams crew think the same of JPM? Hardly.
In hindsight, when JPM announced he was leaving, they should have replaced him immediately and bitten the bullet. They could have then brought in whoever they were wooing for 05 (Webber) whatever the cost. I don't know about these Hungary rumours, but Williams should STILL consider doing this and throw all their weight behind that driver because if they don't, they will already be on the back foot for 05. Montoya does'nt care less - his 04 is finished and it looks like he will get a good McLaren for 05 - so sew the seeds for 05 now, Williams. Don't let Ralf back, get the new 05 driver in the car and (if it were me), I'd be even more radical and leave Gene in (to test under race conditions) and tell JPM to take a holiday.

Super Tourer · 13 Jul 2004, 08:16 (Ref:1035019)

I think the driver issue is tinkering around the edges.

Many pundits thought that FW should have done a deal to move aside JPM, but no doubt under pressure from BMW and following on from the stronger end to 2003, they probably thought they were in the hunt for the 2004 title and kept him on that basis.

As it turned out, it wouldn't matter who was in the car, whether it had been Webber or DC, they would still be in the same boat they are now.

In mid 2003, Patrick Head offered the opinion with the 2003 car 'that early on, they failed to understand it sufficently', a bit like McLaren they have repeated the same 'mistake' with the FW26, but unlike the FW25 their attempts to improve it are not unlocking it, if anything it is getting worse.

Williams beleive the solution is to invest in yet another wind tunnel, but one can only imagine what data they have been looking at from their existing facility, to apparently get it so wrong.

To me, that sounds like you need an injection of new people, not newer and bigger 'facilties' and it's debatable wether spending some of that money on tempting people away from other teams might be a better policy, after all it's what everyone else does...

It's six years since Williams last WCC crown, and in that period they have 'only' scored 9 wins. After this season it will be 7 years, at the current rate it could be 10 years before they need to make space for another constructors trophy.

I can't believe that facing a possible 5th in the WCC in year 4 of their program was in BMW's imagination, and one can only wonder how long it will be before they start asking VERY serious questions of Williams, if they aren't doing already of course.

Undoubtedly Williams are taking a hard look at themselves, but that is nothing like the same as your major sponsor and partner putting you on the spot.

Kicking-back · 13 Jul 2004, 08:53 (Ref:1035055)

Williams car is no better now than at the start of the season, while BAR, Renault and McLaren have all improved theirs.

BootsOntheSide · 13 Jul 2004, 09:53 (Ref:1035103)

The walrus-nose does appear to ahve been a big misjudgement. Most cars which inherently look ugly do struggle for performance, and I really hope other teams don't try to refine this idea.

I think the problems in the team do run deeper. Driver instability is part of it, and it seems like both drivers wavered from the task a little at times, although JPM hasn't stopped trying and always looks likely to push for 100% from the car.

The disqualifications can partly be seen as a teething problem for the changing team structure, which should reap benefits in teh future - Sam Michael isn't the type to make these mistakes repeatedly. However, his chacnes of developing this year's car furrther seem slim, and there's no guarantee that the 2005 car will be better.

Glen · 13 Jul 2004, 10:07 (Ref:1035117)

Montoya is never shy when it comes to criticising the car, and he seems pretty content with the front - in The Telegraph race report on Silverstone he commented that the car lacks traction but is otherwise quite good. I think the team lacks focus in terms of getting the cars set up at the races - I see that as a direct consequence of the driver situation. They need Webber in there urgently to restore their focus on race weekends in a technical sense, in my opinion.

Super Tourer · 13 Jul 2004, 10:20 (Ref:1035124)

I agree they have had teething problems on the technical side, but once again that shows a lack of judgement from Williams, if they were grooming SM for the role, they should have made him TD over the winter, not mid season - or kept PH in the role until the end of this season.

You can't give away points with 'amateurish mistakes' at this level, particularly when you race against Ferrari who make very few mistakes.

It amazes me that none of the teams look at how Ferrari operate. Sir FW has identified that one of Ferrari's strengths has been it's ability to test cars on it's own track 7 days a week, yet he says he can't build one here due to planning restrictions - OK get BMW to build one, or use one of their test tracks and base a test team at that 7 days a week, if that is what it takes.

Also look at stability. Ferrari have had the same lead driver since 1996 - 9 seasons - in that timescale Willams have had 3 different No 1 drivers, and 4 if you count JPM alongside Ralf.

Again since 1996, Ferrari have only had 3 different drivers in their line up (aside from Salo when MS was injured) - Schumacher, Irvine and Barrichello. Contrast this with Williams who have had - Hill, Villeneuve, Frentzen, Zanardi, Button, Ralf Schumacher and Montoya in the same time scale.

On the technical side, all the key players of the Ferrari dream team have been constant, whilst Williams have watched Newey and Willis walk out the door to design cars for other teams, that have gone on to beat theirs.

It's an intersting topic and when you start to look at a few facts and figures, it's not that hard to see why Williams have had a 6 year drought really.

Also in that time they had the instablity of Renault pulling out and 'making do' with the warmed over Supertec customer engine, then having to 'start again' with BMW, but once again not a problem Ferrari would ever suffer from.

ralf fan · 13 Jul 2004, 14:04 (Ref:1035416)

The Walrus apparently has not been a great success...

at the start of the year we expected Williams to be fighting for the championship but it just hasnt happened... i think Mac will beat them as well!!

**Bononi** · 13 Jul 2004, 14:25 (Ref:1035447)

...in addition two drivers that were not happy at the team, no matter what the PR says.

GP Racer · 13 Jul 2004, 15:35 (Ref:1035516)

Quote:

Originally posted by PaulSands
The instability coming from the fact that JPM was never going to be there after this season and the doubt about Ralf can't have helped. No matter how professional either driver likes to think they are I would doubt very much that they have been giving Williams 100%

Bingo! Your right on the money Paul.

Montoya's ridiculous announcement about leaving Williams, had to have a huge, adverse affect on the team as a whole, especially with a revolutionary car coming on, and Ralfs unprofessional behavior certainly added to the mess.

It takes a team to win in F1, and these 2 guys, really made a mess out of a great one...

f1manoz · 13 Jul 2004, 17:12 (Ref:1035612)

Radical car that has proven to be a bit of a failure, certainly compared to the Ferrari, Renault and BAR, and the new McLaren now seems to have the edge.

JPM announcing so early that he was leaving would have upset the balance of the team and Ralf just hasn't performed at all this year.

Kicking-back · 13 Jul 2004, 18:58 (Ref:1035708)

Fair assesment there, f1manoz.

Led ZeppF1 · 14 Jul 2004, 05:21 (Ref:1036047)

IMHO, the main problem was the walrus nose and the twin keel.

Williams had no reason to go radical. They should have developed the 2003 FW25 model, one of the best car in 2003 season if not the best.They could have worked on a evolution for 2004 before trying anything radical again.

Look at Ferrari. IMHO, the F2004 is effectively an evolution of the F2001 model, the time when these current design rules came into play.

The FW26 was immediately quicker than FW25 when launched. But Ralf quickly commented that even during winter testing they had been unable to improve from the initial base.

All the other teams have improved faster than Williams, and Ralf and (particularly) JPM have been complaining about that all season.

Gt_R · 14 Jul 2004, 05:33 (Ref:1036049)

Firstly, Frank and Head made a decision to go radical. They knew that by evolution, they could match Ferrari and the much hyped Mclaren, but not enough probably to dominate them. To risk a radical solution could possibly pay off hugely.

Another thing is that Head has long before 2003 decided that Williams should take a twin keel route and is pretty upset that the 2003 car isn't incorporated with this idea, partly explaining Willis departure. Head doesn't want to be left playing catch up in the twin keel stake.

So a twin keel design for Williams in 2004 is long a set decision.

In FW25, Williams had the best overall package of the season. Mclaren had to run a devloped 17D, which is barely fast enough. Ferrari spent a huge part of the season struggling with tyres. Williams had great tyres and great engines in a competitive car to win...BUT Frank and Head knew that their package looks good only because the other teams were struggling in some areas, while tyres made their own package look a bit better than what the car itself really is - the conclusion is the FW25 is good, but at the same time is conservative and not class-leading...and ambitious as they always are, they want to change it for 2004.

It's a risk, and while the initial pace of the FW26 is indeed promising (quicker than FW25, but also, record breaking at tests), the team doesn't seem to fully understand the theories/fundamentals of the car and hence, struggle to develope it further.

Which is why Sam Michael and their drivers came out after a few races admitting that the car doesn't have any fundamental problems, just lacking in pace. The main thing now seems that the team just don't know where to dig for that extra "pace"

HDTVKSS · 14 Jul 2004, 06:01 (Ref:1036057)

Looking at the new Mac( thast the only other twin keel car yes?) there is promise to be found there. i think the 1st year that you try somthing radical, as both teams have you are bound to find issues.

Both Teams took different routes. Mac redisgned the car and introduced the B spec( which seems to be par for the course for this team these days). Williams on the other hand decided to work with what they had instead of re - inventing the wheel. whos solution will work in the long run? i guess only time will tell. Mac certainly seems to have the upper hand in the shorter term.

The driver issues wouldnt have helped at all, must have been very deflating for all involved. Sam Michael Will do a good job if given a chance.he has his head screwed on, and like when you start any new high pressure job, mistakes are bound to happen. thats how you learn. Its hard when that learning curve has to be done in the public domain.

zetta · 14 Jul 2004, 19:42 (Ref:1036689)

I think the whole Williams debacle can be blamed on the mismanagement of the team resources by the principals. They had Geoff Willis, who had proved himself as a master aerodinamicist in the FW25, and they let them go to BAR (probably for monetary reasons), where he demonstrated what he's capable of. They had a WDC challenger in Montoya, and they expected him to keep on driving for 1/3 of the money they were paying his underperforming teammate. They had a very good car in the FW25, and decided to go for an all-new unproved and untested design, instead of trying to develop what they had. I don't think it's fair to blame the drivers. Both of them (specially Montoya) are getting a lot out of the FW26. I agreed with the SPEED commentators when they said that Gene's performance in Silverstone reflected more accurately the capabilities of the FW26, while Montoya's performance was beyond what could be expected of the car.

Led ZeppF1 · 15 Jul 2004, 07:11 (Ref:1037013)

Quote:

Originally posted by PaulSands
The instability coming from the fact that JPM was never going to be there after this season and the doubt about Ralf can't have helped. No matter how professional either driver likes to think they are I would doubt very much that they have been giving Williams 100%

Well, I wouldn't judge wether they have been giving Williams 10% or not. IMHO, JPM pushing the car as hard as usually.

Maybe, the problem is JPM, and maybe Ralf, has not been allowed to test as much as he deserves because of his Mclaren move.

Until this weekend, JPM only test four days, while tested 9 days.

Here are the number of days each of the regular drivers and main test drivers in the top teams have tested (I pick up from another forum). Counted from the beginning of March until July 13th.

Badoer 32 (Includes shakedown laps)
Montagny 17
Davidson 16
Gene 16
Wurz 15
M. Schumacher 14
Barrichello 14
Coulthard 14
Raikkonen 13
Sato 13
Button 12
Alonso 11
R.Schumacher 9
Trulli 8
Montoya 4

Gt_R · 15 Jul 2004, 08:19 (Ref:1037043)

It's completely understandable that a driver who's leaving would have some developements and information withheld from him.

And that's where it starts to get tricky for Williams. On one hand, they have 2 race drivers leaving end of this season. On the otherhand, they are embarking on an aggressive developement programme for their FW26. And it's hard to balance this role.

Hence, it isn't hard to imagine that Williams is now putting most of the work load onto their tests drivers, and preferably, get a substitute driver for Ralf whom they want as a race driver for next year so that the driver can provide continuity and help the team develope the FW26 and transit to the FW27.

Webber seems locked into the Jaguar seat and won't get into a Williams til winter. Probably that's where Nick's rumours are actually strong possibilities..he could race the remaining season for Williams and maybe on to next year, and could effectively provide Williams somebody to depend on for the developement. Lastly, Nick is easy to get out of his current Jordan contract and that if he fails to impress this year, could give Williams time to find another 2nd driver.

But of course, back to whats wrong with Williams? I won't agree that both drivers are not trying hard enough... Ralf's huge crash..his good performance at Canada and Montoya's pretty good efforts in Indy all suggests that the drivers are doing their part. But undeniably, they know that the contest for glory this year is over, and are looking forward to their next drive. All they are aiming for is to try win a race this year..and for their own interest is priority instead of a team's interest.

But most importantly, Williams had made an amature error with the way they handle their personnels...and it seems the team is unsettled at the moment.

Kirk · 16 Jul 2004, 00:34 (Ref:1037748)

Quote:

Originally posted by Gt_R

But most importantly, Williams had made an amature error with the way they handle their personnels...and it seems the team is unsettled at the moment.

Well said Gt_R, and I agree with most of your posts on this subject, with Super Tourer's also, some good insight.

The question is: How does Williams recover as they are in jeopardy of being 5th or 6th if the trend continues. A nightmare that PH and FW do not want to live.

DKGandBH · 16 Jul 2004, 01:29 (Ref:1037755)

With Both drivers going to other teams, why would they challenge those teams, and take money from them by taking points (and positions) from them ?

David

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