Question about kart safety

[Muppetrescue]

For my sins I am a member of the Motorsport Ireland Safety committee. We have recently been asked to consider the issue of kart racing at Mondello Park a grade 2 FIA licenced race track. The problem is the concern of members of the karting committee about speeds on the main straight and the problem of speed for a relatively long time compared to normal kart tracks.

I need to find out about chicanes / modifications if any made to car race tracks eg Brands, Cadwell, Silverstone etc when karts are run. I know that chicanes have been used in the past in some places but I am led to believe it was more a concern for engines seizing than reducing speeds.Any info on changes to the normal car opertions would be greatly appreciated.

Regards
Colman Gilligan RED 103

[EvilPumpkin]

Hi Colman, glad you're not dead.

Suggest posting the same in the Kart forum - they're having a safety discussion at the moment.

Oh and if you're interested in driver reaction to this, take a look at the forum at www.irishkarting.com - most of them are not too happy.

[dogsbody]

Hi, at Cadwell Park we run both our full circuit and short circuit for karts mostly in the same configuration as for cars. We certainly do not have any artificial speed reducing chicanes on our two main straights (Start/finish and Park). Generally speaking I think it isn't the speed on the straights that cause the problems it's the corners at the end of them .

It is always fun to watch karts do 30 yard wheelies at the top of the mountain.

Good luck with your circuit.

[Kev Smith]

Donington and Croft run long circuit karts on the circuit's without any changes

[Tony_Simpson]

Same thing around Mallory Park, no track changes made. The top classes are lapping at 46 seconds or faster, 105 mph+.

What type of karts are being planned to race round Mondello Park??

For long circuit karts have a look at http://www.superkart.org.uk/index.htm

[Teletubby]

Colman,

Thruxton and Pembrey are both run unaltered for gearbox Karts, I'm not sure they would be going any faster at Mondello than they are approaching the chicane at Thruxton!

[Stephen Green]

Brands does the same, no changes for karts, but it's bloody scary!

My personal view is that 'mormal' race tracks are too long for karts and allow them to run at super scary speeds which leads to the real threat of engine siezures.

As Teri has pointed out there is a thread on the Kart forum pertaining to this matter. It seems to be they don't want seat belts nor neck restraints. Their lives I guess?

[Warwick]

The only time you get engine siezures in karts on short or long circuit is if you dont set them up properly, either ignition timing,to lean in the jetting or incorrect fuel/oil ratio.

The only reason long circuit is considered more dangerous is the increased speed,however I see far less crashing and bashing in a seasons long circuit than I do in one meeting of short circuit,and after four years long circuit racing in both 125 and 250 gearbox I have yet to see someone injured

[Dave Brand]

Superkarts raced at Oulton last year as part of a normal car meeting, using the Fosters (short) circuit. The only changes made were to put straw bales at perceived danger points, such as the ends of breaks in the Armco, for the kart races.

[Stephen Green]

Warwick, I used to think the same until I saw two drivers killed at Brands Hatch on the same day. Since then I and several other marshals have not felt comfortable with long circuit kart meetings.

I accept that it could happen at any time and at any place, but it's something I never want to see again.

Incidentally we did have a guy size his engine on the same day but, not being a mechanic, I can't tell you the reason of course.

Don't misunderstand me, I love to watch kart racing, especially on short tracks, but just have an uneasy feeling when they get on something the size of the Indy circuit at Brands Hatch.

[EvilPumpkin]

The only circuit I've marshalled karts at has been Mondello and I have to agree with Warwick - from what I've seen, the standards of driving on the short circuit tend to be a bit more.....touchy feely for want of a better word.

However, I've seen some fairly savage moves from the bigger boys and actually had to break up a fight in the gravel trap at the last meeting (much to the amusement of everyone watching I have to add!).

Regrettably we've had a couple of relatively serious incidents recently with what I THINK were 125s - (I'm open to correction on that as I simply divide karts into "little not as heavy ones" and "big ones"! ) 2 different drivers thrown from their karts and sustaining broken bones.

The problem seems to me personally (and obviously I have limited experience with karts) that because the track LOOKS wide at the first and last corners, they forget that it narrows as they go around. They try and take the corners 4 abreast and then wonder why people get punted off. Both the serious incidents I refer to happened at the last corner - I wasn't present for either of them, but I've talked to people who were and it seems that in both cases a kart simply got squeezed too much and flipped, dumping the driver. I can't honestly see how this is a speed issue as much as it is a driver issue.

[Warwick]

I can't say about other countries but here most of the gearbox classes are raced by more expirienced (30+)drivers and we have very few problems,although I have done the four wide into a corner thing,I think only three of us made it,and two wide with someones tyres rubbing on your bodywork is common! however there are only a few here running superkarts and you know the guys you race with and know how they race.

The main problems with karts on long circuit from my point of view is stuff like ripple strips,bit of a bump if you are driving a car,in a kart it can get you airborne,as for armco fine if you are in a car but I wouldn't want to give it a nudge in a kart.

Generally I would say that most incidences are driver issues rather than circuit/speed issues but the consequences at long circuit speeds are liable to be far more serious whatever the cause.

[Muppetrescue]

Thanks for the input so far this is good stuff. If I can summarise the general views at this point;


1) Few if any modifications are made to car race tracks in order to run karts.

2) Long circuit karting is a different activity to short circuit and requires a higher level of driver experience and discipline.

3) Karts on car circuits can be scary and compeititors must accept there is a higher level of risk if they wish to race .


Our situation is that the kart club bring an entire event cadets , gearbox, non gearbox , prokart etc. The cadets and non gearbox classes use a shorter circuit so the only place they are at speed is on the main straight. How many accidents have you seen at the end of long straights ? I am aware of the accident at Paddock Hill a few years ago. I am trying to gauge whether the issue of driver discipline at long circuits is where the attention should be rather than on the speeds.

The easy way is to ban Mondello as a venue , but it is the only place the kart community can bring sponsors and can say look this is a real FIA spec racetrack. I am also concerned that compeititors would have no fast training ground before European competition at higher levels.

Thanks so far for all your help , keep it coming.

Colman Gilligan red 103

[Warwick]

Ok our rules only alow senior (15+) to race long circuit,non gearbox like Rotax max and KT100 run the same circuit but every class including gearbox and KT have to run a clutch in case a engine seizes.

Junior classes will use a shortened version of the track with chicanes made of cones on the straights to slow them down,non gearbox senior without clutch will sometimes also use this track.

The reason for running juniors (and others) as muppetrescue pointed out is to give them big track expirience without long circuit speed,as they work there way up through the classes and to higher levels of competition.

At our drivers briefing all drivers are reminded of the extra speed they will be carrying,of the ripple strips etc and what procedures are in place in case of accident.

If there is any armco near the track just make sure there are no gaps under it that would allow a kart,or parts of kart under it!

[MagnetON]

Originally posted by Warwick
If there is any armco near the track just make sure there are no gaps under it that would allow a kart,or parts of kart under it!

And given my recent experience at D12... a net to stop karts going WHEEEE over the top of the tyre wall and bank

Oh, I should add that the karter was fine, just a little bewildered to be sitting in the gravel trap without his busted vehicle under his butt!

[EvilPumpkin]

Well the decision was made to put in a chicane at the top of the main straight. I'm not going to comment on that but I wanted to let you all know that there were 3 serious incidents at that chicane today - one involving a 14 year old - and as a result the meeting had to be abandoned.

By the way, can anyone give any info on the top speeds reached by karts at UK circuits - or point me in the direction of anyone who would know? I heard some information today that I would dearly like to verify.

[neilwaynesmith]

On the plus side, with long circuits, you don't have to deal with parents acting as pushers. In my view, this can be just as dangerous to the drivers as the hazards of the track.

[Warwick]

Dunno about speeds but try www.superkart.org.uk has lap records for long circuit karts and links to other gearbox sites,depending on the track and class I would expect expect speeds upwards of 210km + at our local track with a 3rd gear sweeper onto a 900m straight thats what we hit.

[EvilPumpkin]

Thanks Warwick that's great

[EvilPumpkin]

For anyone who was marshalling at Mondello last weekend for karts - from a driver on the Irish Karting website:

As a final note to my comments on this thread, the professionalism of the Marshall’s and Medical staff were truly outstanding. It’s satisfying to know that even when we get it wrong, there will always be those in the background to ensure that we live to fight another day.
Many thanks to you...

[Woolley]

Just back from Donington, and we've got Superkarts playing for the week-end. Having been close to a couple already, the view on =kart safety is there isn't any. What you do is get a tea-tray, fit four wheels and some bodywork that's made up of the left-overs from an Airfix kit. Then you tuck the exhaust under one armpit, the hot-water pipe for the radiator under the other, put on a helmet and run at the world at F3 speeds. Preferably six abreast. And that's just untimed practice. Brilliant fun. They even clear up their own breakdowns to save you the trouble...

[Warwick]

As a current driver I think thats a bit harsh Woolley lol,at Donnington looks as though you had the best European drivers there although I believe there was a high attrition rate,care to give us a race report?

[Woolley]

Sorry, not meant to be harsh or even critical, but admiring and amazed. As one used to drivers cocooned in carbonfibre, roll hoops, multi-point harnesses, etc, these came as a bit of a shock, but a welcome one.

Race report? Too much action to take in. Fantastic fun, some of the best racing I've seen in years. Respect for fellow competitors was obvious (perhaps car drivers are too safe?), overtaking everywhere - one guy spun out on the first lap, yet finished fourth! Met a couple of drivers following mechanical failure, and they were all friendly and chatty. I think you are all very brave, very skillful and refreshingly approachable. Come back soon.

[Woolley]

Following on from the above and having had time to think about it, the biggest contribution to safety is the nut holding the steering wheel. The kartists drove responsibly, looked out for each other, assisted in removing stopped vehicles, and general behaved in a way condusive to safety. The karts themselves, while only providing minimum protection, are well behaved when it goes wrong. Being light and low with high grip levels, they stop quickly in a spin or even on wet grass. They don't travel anywhere near as far as a car at equivalent speeds. I'd suggest that, except under unusal conditions, they're safer than your average FFord?

[Guisbro Rod H]

The Gearbox Karts are at Croft this weekend.
I will ask them about maximum speeds achieved as requested by EvilPumkin.
I seem to remember reading that at the first Kart Grand Prix at Silverstone in the 80's they said their eyes started rattling at 120mph
At 160mph their brains rattled on Hanger straight.
Their lap times would have put them into the middle of that years F1 grid.
Do you believe what's written by a journalist?

I suspect what they want is straw bails
Armco will hurt if hit at any significant speed