An Excellent Article on the Hermanos Rodriguez Track

[Liz]

http://www.nationalpost.com/driversedge/story.html?id={C8CCD64F-7D13-4E94-B95C-F1FAD66DB868}

This is in the National Post Drivers' Edge section, in case the link doesn't pull it up, and is a very good article on the Hermanos Rodriguez track, including historical information and explains how it was redesigned for modern safety concerns without damaging the ambience of the layout. They found a couple of tunnels they didn't know were under there when they started the excavations, and it took 18 months to find the original plans -- a lot of their work was done by examining old race videos!

Go by and have a look at it.

[Lee Janotta]

Thanks for the link Liz. Folks, you'll have to cut&paste the _whole_ URL, you can't just click the link.

Well, it certainly wasn't an easy job... But I'm sorry, Dickson's got his head wedged up his ass, like so many other "designers", for not looking at race footage from the track FIRST!!!!

And yeah, they have ruined it by cutting up the Peraltada... I expect once the fans see this during the actual race, they'll create enough of a fuss that CART and the local authorities will have to restore the corner to it's true glory.

Keep the fast corners fast... That's my firm belief. Especially in this series, for crying out loud! What's the difference between that turn, and either of the turns at Motegi or Milwaukee?

The big mistake is that these people who get hired are architects, not race drivers.

[Jordi]

Lee, give the race a chance. They still expect'em to do 360 kph at the end of the straight, pretty impressive if you ask me

[Lee Janotta]

Oh, I'm looking forward to the race, don't get me wrong! Anything's better than another Denver/Miami-style zero-grip street circuit.

It's just not going to be as good as it _could_ be, or as it rightfully _should_ be.

Here's a video of Senna going off at Peraltada in 1991... You can see just how spectacular this corner is, and that there is more than enough runoff for CART!

http://video.f1gp.ru/91/mexico/mexicoq1.mpg

[Lee Janotta]

Oh, and here's one of Senna coming thru the esses in '92... I don't think he much cared for this circuit.

http://video.f1gp.ru/92/mexico/mexicoq1.mpg

[Jordi]

I know, I know about the track and have seen those videos... I dunno, really. I think it'd be a great track, with or without Peraltada

[Jay]

Sorry Lee, I have to disagree with you once again on the issue of circuit design.

There's no way the current cars would do the old circuit safely (ie without excessive risk). If you don't know what I mean, try a few laps of it in Grand Prix Legends. That last turn is fun, but it would most definately be completely flat out in a modern Champ car. The difference between that turn and an oval turn is that the corner is narrower than either of those tracks and there is no runoff at all. Not to mention the speed they'd be at on the straight if they came onto it at 260k/h...

I haven't been able to find a computer simulation of the new circuit yet (anyone?), but I like the look. I agree that the two turns through the baseball stadium look somewhat mickeymouse, but in another way, they're just like turns 8 and 9 of the Molson Indy Toronto which provide some of the best areas to view the champcars at any race. Must remember the fans that pay the $$$ now...

One thing that really stood out to me in that report, "Computer simulations estimate the ChampCars will reach 364 kilometres an hour." - That's faster than Monza! (which, btw, the original circuit was based off of) That would easily be the fastest speed on any roadcourse in the world, but I wonder if Cart might do something to the wings to avoid such high top speeds.

[Lee Janotta]

Well, I'm sorry too Jay, but I think with all due respect, you're dead wrong on this.

Those corners through the baseball stadium _are_ Mickey Mouse in it's most extreme form, designing the course to suit the seating!

This is on par with that ridiculous chicane at Eau Rouge in '94 in the wake of Senna's death.

But something as simple as _tire_barriers_ probably would have saved the great Brazilian, and Hermanos Rogriquez has them. Stack them triple-height if you want, great! More safety, no effect on the racing!

But to turn this into tightly chicaned garbage is an insult to the fans.

[Jay]

No, I don't think the fans will feel insulted that they now have 3 corners, one with a passing opportunity all in their view, and that they will be able to see the cars for nearly 8 seconds (according to the designer)! This is what makes for great viewing areas in road/street courses.

Also, one thing you don't get from that picture is just how steeply banked the corner is. F1 cars have gone off there and flipped upside down from the effect of the tires digging into the pathetic little gravel trap there.

[Lee Janotta]

Yeah, actually that's what Senna's just about to do, go and flip over when he backs into the tires.

And then gets out no worse for the wear.

It's stupid and short-sighted to try and create tracks which have fewer accidents. The focus needs to be on making the accidents more survivable.

And yes, they'll be able to see all the pretty sponsor logos on the cars as they crawl past the grandstands at a snail's pace. And then they'll want the cars go back up onto the banking, and feel cheated that they didn't get to see these guys blow past them going flat out at the very limit of adhesion.

This designer is suggesting that the Mexican fans can only appreciate the racing if it's spoon fed to them. That's pretty insulting.

It's pretty insulting to the drivers too to suggest they don't have the skill to take that corner flat out.

[Jordi]

If this is "insulting", I wonder what you think of Hockenheim... That is one disgraced track.

But you got your opinion and we got ours. So we'll see, Sunday the 17th...

[Lee Janotta]

Hockenheim was a big middle finger to every fan and driver in the world.

Yes, we'll see. Despite my feelings about the hack job done to the track's best corners (the hairpin has also been amputated), I hope this is an incredibly successful event for CART.

Perhaps the revenue from this year will allow them to add more runoff at Peraltada and the hairpin, and bring them back into the circuit for 2003, and we can all be happy. Because in it's full glory, this is without a doubt a track in the same class as Watkins Glen, Road America, Laguna Seca and VIR. One of the 5 best in North America.

But at a fundamental level, I think CART needs to raise the level of the tracks they run on. Not in terms of facilities, but in track layout... Basically, we need more Elkhart Lakes and Laguna Secas, and fewer Denvers and Miamis.

[mac]

Unless the new corners are passing spots, I don't like it.

If they can pass at that point, I don't mind it.

[Lee Janotta]

Oh, and just to emphasize that I'm not a madman (though I am _going_ mad ), I'm not angry that they're using the Moises Solana complex as the first turn instead of Gancho (aka the Spiral). The entry into the Solana complex is a good passing spot, and frankly, I hate Gancho... Evil decreasing-radius corner... Braking and turning all the way thru, you want so bad to get on the power, but you can't... Think that awful last corner (Luffield) at Silverstone, but worse. No way to pass through it, plus there's _no_ place for runoff there.

Peraltada... It's just the track's sacred signature corner. It'd be like a chicane at Eau Rouge, or some godawful modification to the Corkscrew... It's the corner that makes the track more than just a good place to hold a race, but instead a place where legends are made.

[Jay]

Yes, the new corner has created what appears to be a passing opportunity. The old last corner would most definately have been single file.

"It's pretty insulting to the drivers too to suggest they don't have the skill to take that corner flat out." It's not the driver's skill - they could drive on almost anything. It's what would happen if something broke, or some oil was spilled on the track or whatever... Most crashes aren't started by driver error.

The hairpin always was a stupid corner. No runoff, and way to tight and narrow to even think of passing someone. Also, why the hell was it banked?

Lee, it's not just safety, but having the track go through the baseball stadium will give thousands of fans the chance to see the cars at their best - steering, shifting, jostling for position - for 8 seconds or so. If you want to see a car zoom by you for a fraction of a second going through a high speed corner like Peraltada try - try ovals. Or just sit on a straightaway.

[Lee Janotta]

Jay... I swear, I once believed slow corners made the best races... I was one of you... I thought Mid-Ohio was the greatest track in the world.

Then I saw my first race from Spa.

Slow tracks are for touring cars who use their fenders to pass each other. All well and good, but 800 horsepower open-wheel cars are made for going as fast as their drivers can stand to push them... They're _made_for_ corners like the Peraltada.

As for the whole idea of speed being what kills... Just remember Jeff Krosnoff was killed at Toronto... It doesn't get too much more Mickey Mouse than that track.

And I firmly believe, if you look for every chance for disaster, you might as well call off the race, because it's not worth running if you've got the sanitize the soul out of the circuits, and institute a nanny state with regard to the drivers, chastising them for showing balls and driving aggressively (and yes, there is a difference between being aggressive and wreckless).

[greg.n]

they ruined peradelta. I dont agree the corner was too dangerous. Change the run off not the corner. These guys race up to concrete walls and the cars are much stronger than they were 10 years ago. remember Mansell (Ferrari) taking Berger (McLaren)around the outside of Peradelta in 90 or 91? They have ruined one of the greatest corners in motor racing.

[Jay]

Hmmm.. was just driving around the 1987 version in Grand Prix 3 and it certainly is a dangerous corner, but too dangerous... I'm not sure. There's a reasonable runoff, although I'm not sure how accurate the version I had was... the only other thing I have to compare it to is the GPL version, which is undoubtably more dangerous.

You approach the corner at full throttle ~300k/h, dab the brakes while turning in, the rear end will likely get a little loose, than full on the gas exiting at around ~280 k/h onto the long straight. What really makes that corner more dangerous is the banking and gravel trap, without that I think it's just another dangerous corner like R130 in Suzuka or Blanchimont at Spa.

I would tighten the corner so that it would be almost identical to Monza's Parabolic corner and pave the runoff. Then it would be a great corner.

But, I think the real reason the change was made was so that the track could go through the baseball stadium infront of the huge crowds there, which is also good. These fans are after all the ones paying the big bucks!

The 1987 version of the track was dull and boring (apart from peradelta and the straight) with the only possibility of a pass being a draft on the straight, which is difficult because of the speed of the final corner. The new layout looks like it might have some actual passing zones though...lets hope so.

[racer69]

A real shame that the Peraltalda, if the corner was safe enough in the past, why not now? Sure the cars are quicker now, but these cars were running around Fontana last weekend where there is no run-off at all.

Doesn't suprise me that Ron Dickson did this though, history shows he is always puts the $$$ first, especially after the stunt his company tried to pull over the 1987 Bathurst 1000. Kinda ironic that earlier in 1987 his company was replaced by Bernie as the head of the World Touring Car Championship, over money. Seemed great mates with Tom Walkinshaw though.

Have to give the man some credit for circuit design though, he designed the Surfer's Paradise street coarse, then went and said the track was too dangerous nowaday's just prior to this years event.

That story has got me interested in all the circuit changes and so on. It seems like nothing has raced there since 1992, yet i don't understand how the 1992 layout of the track couldn't be established, it seemed fine in 1992. Anyone have/know of any pics of the track prior to rebuilding taking place?

[Lee Janotta]

I found these:

The dumb double-apex the used instead of the hairpin.



Senna setting up to turn into Peraltada.



Exiting the Peraltada. As you can see, there's quite a bit of runoff, and room for more.



Mansell braking for turn 1, the Moises Solana complex, the primary passing spot on the track.

[indycool]

If they're going to hit 364 kph, hope everyone's thought of the altitude down there...if not, engines aren't going to be optimum.

[Lee Janotta]

That's where the turbos are going to be such an asset.

[Jordi]

The more I think of it, the less I think they'll reach 364... F1's were predicted at 350 at the Indy course, but they are normally around 320-330... Is the staright longer than at Indy?

[Jay]

I think the nature of that corner (ie the banking, the entry, the turn in, the dab on the brakes) is what makes it so much more dangerous than any corner on an oval. And I have to admit, driving in GP3 I was thinking to myself 'Gee...this corner would never be allowed in modern GP Racing'. It's a great deal of danger, but there's potential for at least one huge accident there each weekend.

That's why I said if they were to keep it, it should be tightened, so it would feel more like Parabolica in Monza. Just take the dangerous edge away, but still keep it a fun corner.

[Lee Janotta]

Jay, no offense, but if the pavement were twice as wide and there were no runoff, just a hard concrete wall, it'd be essentially the same as Milkwaukee. Well, in the opposite direction, of course.