IMSA 2014 Petit Le Mans Discussion

[Coach Ep]

I might have missed it but it seems Petit's race duration has been *updated* to a 10 hours race only instead of the traditional '1,000 miles/10 hours which ever comes first' one (see imsa.com or roadatlanta.com).

Then again, it wouldn't be a surprise to see both the 1,000 miles and 10 hours markers being reached with a lengthy and/or late FCY (or two)....

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

I might have missed it but it seems Petit's race duration has been *updated* to a 10 hours race only instead of the traditional '1,000 miles/10 hours which ever comes first' one (see imsa.com or roadatlanta.com).

Then again, it wouldn't be a surprise to see both the 1,000 miles and 10 hours markers being reached with a lengthy and/or late FCY (or two)....

Wow you're right This is huge

http://www.imsa.com/sites/default/fi...s%20090214.pdf
Race - Petit Le Mans Powered by Mazda for the TUDOR Championship - 10 Hours
ART 9.6.7 - Duration of the race: Ten (10) hours

There goes the last remaining distance based race for ACO eglible vehicles. And before any of you say why would anyone complain of longer events - well it not only breaks tradition (as if the auto entry cancellations and ACO turning it's back weren't enough) but it also destroys strategic element involved in lower classes. You know how they had to calculate at which point the 1000 miles is reached by the top class and fuel themselves accordingly. No more Risi Comp screwing it up on last lap etc

Isn't it interesting, we have no pre-event testing (no Sunday-Monday or Promoter's session in Wednesday) and 30 minutes less of actual practice too - but the race itself just gets de facto longer?

They really should rename it Road Atlanta 10 Hours and safe the name of PLM.

[joeb]

The distance standard of Petit was always one of the things I liked about it. You knew the leader would do 394 laps, but what about the other classes? As you say that introduced strategy that mattered. Ask Mr Risi!

[BullMan]

This is pretty dumb. I guess they're avoiding the inevitable not getting to 1000 miles because race control would throw a FCY every 15 minutes and they'd get about 500 miles in.

[Maelochs]

I think it is being done for TV reasons. I length-limited race could be over way early or way late, which screws up scheduling for the network. A ten-hour race is easy to plan for.

So ... take the race off TV (two-hour hi-lite reel only) or put up with the fact that a once-in-history ending (Risi running dry a few corners from victory) won't be repeated.

It is still pretty much the same race. If anyone really just cannot stomach that the P-cars might run 396 laps, I guess I am not the one to try to win you back.

I am working right now to actually attend the race---and if things pan out, in honor of those who refuse to accept this change, I stage a standing protest during every lap past 394---standing by the fence watching the cars come by, of course.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I think it is being done for TV reasons. I length-limited race could be over way early or way late, which screws up scheduling for the network. A ten-hour race is easy to plan for.

So ... take the race off TV (two-hour hi-lite reel only) or put up with the fact that a once-in-history ending (Risi running dry a few corners from victory) won't be repeated.

It is still pretty much the same race. If anyone really just cannot stomach that the P-cars might run 396 laps, I guess I am not the one to try to win you back.

I am working right now to actually attend the race---and if things pan out, in honor of those who refuse to accept this change, I stage a standing protest during every lap past 394---standing by the fence watching the cars come by, of course.

It's 10 hours at most. It won't run later than that! The distance is 1000 miles OR 10 hours, whichever comes first. 1000 miles has ALWAYS come before 10 hours, with the exception of the rain shortened 2009 race.

[Deleted]

It would've been likely gone to 10h this year anyway due to much-lower-than-LMP1 pace and 45 minute cautions for coke cans and LMPC crashes and GWCs, but it still stinks. PLM is disappearing from PLM ever so rapidly.

How many distance based sportscar events are there left, seriously is Super GT with it's 1x 1000km race 7x sprint-ish races the only major one left... BES has the Nurburgring 1000km but they got rid of it again didn't they...

[Speed-King]

Moved it to Paul Richard for next year, though I think the 1000K is only the name with a fixed duration of six hours.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Moved it to Paul Richard for next year, though I think the 1000K is only the name with a fixed duration of six hours.

Too bad... ILMC called Spa round of 2011 as "Spa 1000km" as well, even though it was a 6 hour event.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I think it is being done for TV reasons. I length-limited race could be over way early or way late, which screws up scheduling for the network. A ten-hour race is easy to plan for.

So ... take the race off TV (two-hour hi-lite reel only) or put up with the fact that a once-in-history ending (Risi running dry a few corners from victory) won't be repeated.

It is still pretty much the same race. If anyone really just cannot stomach that the P-cars might run 396 laps, I guess I am not the one to try to win you back.

I am working right now to actually attend the race---and if things pan out, in honor of those who refuse to accept this change, I stage a standing protest during every lap past 394---standing by the fence watching the cars come by, of course.

Great post.

[joeb]

Here are the overall times and top finishers in P2 and GT over the past 10 or so Petits:

Year	Time	Top P2 Laps	Car	Top GT2/LM Lap	Team
2013	9:37:5.851	388	HPD ARX 03b	375	Falken
2012	9:37:43.578	391	HPD ARX 03b	375	ESM
2011	9:34:23.972	375	HPD ARX 01G	367	AF Corse
2010	9:10:43.451	383	HPD ARX 01c	355	Corvette
2008	9:41:17.825	394	RS Spyder	358	Risi
2007	9:18:58.275	394	RS Spyder	353	Flying Lizard
2006	9:16:49.835	386	RS Spyder	356	Peterson White Lightning
2005	9:16:20.630	375	Lola B05/40 AER	364	Peterson White Lightning
2004	9:35:41.562	369	Lola B2K/40/Judd	360	Alex Job
2003	9:31:10.608	357	Lola EX257 Judd	360	Alex Job

That was actually a lot of fun to put together!

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I think it is being done for TV reasons. I length-limited race could be over way early or way late, which screws up scheduling for the network. A ten-hour race is easy to plan for.

So ... take the race off TV (two-hour hi-lite reel only) or put up with the fact that a once-in-history ending (Risi running dry a few corners from victory) won't be repeated.

It is still pretty much the same race. If anyone really just cannot stomach that the P-cars might run 396 laps, I guess I am not the one to try to win you back.

I am working right now to actually attend the race---and if things pan out, in honor of those who refuse to accept this change, I stage a standing protest during every lap past 394---standing by the fence watching the cars come by, of course.

Screws up scheduling for what, Fox Sports 2? Oh dear. It's always going to take over 9 hours anyway so we're not talking about massive gaps either.

And they had the race on live TV for what, 16 seasons (okay 14 as 2011-2012 were web + ABC highlights only) and it was okay even last year with Fox Sports 1, why not now...

Sebring finishes have not been live on TV for a while either, just on web, and that's a timed event...

The strategical element is important for me in motor racing and this was one of the last places to see it happening with the lower classes. And while yes Risi is the most obvious example as it ended up in disaster, there have been other great fuel based shenanigans going on at the end in many other races as well.

And yes you're not the one winning it back

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by joeb

Here are the overall times and top finishers in P2 and GT over the past 10 or so Petits:

That was actually a lot of fun to put together!

Thanks joeb, very interesting indeed.

[seanyb505]

I'm sad to see more strategy thrown out by management. I don't think this is as horrendous as allowing tires at the same time as fuel, but it's still sad to see intriguing aspects of the sport widdled away.

What frustrates me more about this is the spins that will likely come after the event similar to the 12hr. The change does seem only because, as others have posted, management is concerned that the race won't get to 1000 miles being the only Petit (1998 391 laps) run to completion that didn't hit 1000 miles first. Whether caution or other reasons, they're concerned it won't go the full distance. Can't have a NASCAR series portrayed as second rate compared to what existed before. Taking distance out gives them the opportunity to place the almighty DP on terms with Audi, Peugeot, Porsche. "The definitely a Chevrolet Corvette and not just stickers DP joins the ranks of the world's best and most advanced sports car prototypes. Heck, we went further than Peugeot when Peugeot won in 2009! Ha!"

The alternative is just as delicious to management: Petit 2014 does run further than 1000 miles. I'll call it now: "TUSC runs a Petit distance further than any previous iteration of the event in history! History made! Never before has Petit gone over 1000 miles! We did it! The definitely a Chevrolet Corvette and not just stickers DP has not only beaten everyone today, but everyone in all of history! Heck, we went waaay further than Peugeot when Peugeot won in 2009! Ha!"

The whole thing wreaks. DPs have been a farce for a while, why stop now? Personally I can't stand leaving out important facts while painting a rosy picture about anything. During VIR I kept hearing how this was going to be the first time in TUSC history the a GT car would win overall. While true, it was also the first time where no proto was there to win overall. Also, history? Yes while true, your less than 10 month history of races doesn't exactly have significant weight as far as history goes. The PR spin is worse than ever. The removal of the distance only serves to help that train roll on.

Having said that, this year I will get the pleasure of introducing Petit and the track in general to the person who introduced me to Sebring. Hence I'll also be standing on the fence at 9:30, rooting for another Viper or Falken win.

[ATLFalconsFAN]

The thing about history in a niche sport such as ours is that only the people who really give a you-know-what about the sport will give a darn. Those who will give a darn will hopefully know better. I mean even in sports where there's a tremendous amount more focus it's hard to remember who won what? Can anyone remember without checking google who won the Super Bowl five years ago? Probably not.

I would agree that they're doing these types of things for PR spin and sound bites, however I can't see that they get much out of the effort.

(Although how much effort is there to *******ize and change everything we've come to know and love, sadly not much)

I just can't believe that this day has come. I used to look forward to Petit Le Mans for 364 days of the year. I used to go down on Friday and Saturday and it would tear me up inside that the cars were running around the track without me on the Wednesday and Thursday. Now I think I could care less.

At least it was all good for something, at least now I have Le Mans to look forward to for 364 days of the year!

[canamman]

Any word on a WEC P2 showing up?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by canamman

Any word on a WEC P2 showing up?

Doesn't really fit into their schedule, and is only 2 weeks before the last ELMS round so could be tough for anybody wanting to make the trip. Could be done, but there just isn't any reason for somebody to want to make the trip. Oak talked about running two cars but the damage done to the Morgan at Road America put an end to that.

Regardless, I"m still massively looking forward to Petit. I know it is likely to be a caution fest, and the P2's won't be able to stay ahead on the back straight, but it is still a great track to watch cars on. Should have 55 cars on track so there will be action everywhere.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by joeb

........ but there just isn't any reason for somebody to want to make the trip.

This applies to fans as well.


I miss being able to look forward to IMSA races.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

I'm sad to see more strategy thrown out by management. I don't think this is as horrendous as allowing tires at the same time as fuel, but it's still sad to see intriguing aspects of the sport widdled away.

What frustrates me more about this is the spins that will likely come after the event similar to the 12hr. The change does seem only because, as others have posted, management is concerned that the race won't get to 1000 miles being the only Petit (1998 391 laps) run to completion that didn't hit 1000 miles first. Whether caution or other reasons, they're concerned it won't go the full distance. Can't have a NASCAR series portrayed as second rate compared to what existed before. Taking distance out gives them the opportunity to place the almighty DP on terms with Audi, Peugeot, Porsche. "The definitely a Chevrolet Corvette and not just stickers DP joins the ranks of the world's best and most advanced sports car prototypes. Heck, we went further than Peugeot when Peugeot won in 2009! Ha!"

The alternative is just as delicious to management: Petit 2014 does run further than 1000 miles. I'll call it now: "TUSC runs a Petit distance further than any previous iteration of the event in history! History made! Never before has Petit gone over 1000 miles! We did it! The definitely a Chevrolet Corvette and not just stickers DP has not only beaten everyone today, but everyone in all of history! Heck, we went waaay further than Peugeot when Peugeot won in 2009! Ha!"

The whole thing wreaks. DPs have been a farce for a while, why stop now? Personally I can't stand leaving out important facts while painting a rosy picture about anything. During VIR I kept hearing how this was going to be the first time in TUSC history the a GT car would win overall. While true, it was also the first time where no proto was there to win overall. Also, history? Yes while true, your less than 10 month history of races doesn't exactly have significant weight as far as history goes. The PR spin is worse than ever. The removal of the distance only serves to help that train roll on.

Having said that, this year I will get the pleasure of introducing Petit and the track in general to the person who introduced me to Sebring. Hence I'll also be standing on the fence at 9:30, rooting for another Viper or Falken win.

Good post.

[Deleted]

Speaking of euro entries - and discounting Oak Racing as they have done every other race in the series anyway - is this gonna be the first year without one-off Euro influence at all? Last year we still had Rebellion (whom had folded full season after Laguna), in 2012 Rebellion again plus bunch of ELMS teams, 2010-2011 obviously ILMC and before that plenty of -particularly proto- teams each year

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Speaking of euro entries - and discounting Oak Racing as they have done every other race in the series anyway - is this gonna be the first year without one-off Euro influence at all? Last year we still had Rebellion (whom had folded full season after Laguna), in 2012 Rebellion again plus bunch of ELMS teams, 2010-2011 obviously ILMC and before that plenty of -particularly proto- teams each year

Sure looks that way. End of an era for sure.

[Maelochs]

I don't mean to trivialize anyone's dissatisfaction with this change.

For me, after the severe and repeated crotch-kicks I have endured as ALMS decayed and morphed in the the TUSC zombie, this seems like only a gently poke--probably because the affected region is growing numb, which isn't good for the series or myself.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

This applies to fans as well.


I miss being able to look forward to IMSA races.

Point taken, but we still have the GTLM, GTD and PC battles to look forward to. Yes say what you will about the bop/specness of each of those classes,but we truly don't know what car will win from those classes. In Protos there are probably only 3 or 4 cars that can win depending on how the latest adjustments go.

Plus the support races will be good at Petit, and the atmosphere (hopefully) will still be there.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I don't mean to trivialize anyone's dissatisfaction with this change.

For me, after the severe and repeated crotch-kicks I have endured as ALMS decayed and morphed in the the TUSC zombie, this seems like only a gently poke--probably because the affected region is growing numb, which isn't good for the series or myself.

I think it's because no matter how little respect there is left for the series itself anymore, there is still desire for these single big events to remain relatively familiar and relevant. 'Little' things like this just add to the bigger picture.

Daytona 24h is pretty much the same as was before 'merger' I would say, still the same show with sameish cars, atmosphere and grandstand finish plan. When I looked at in in January it felt like the same exact ish thing as 5 years ago.

However Petit with no P1, no auto entries, no European guest entries / international flavour, no 1000 mile distance, no particular ACO love, less track time + no pre-event testing and Grand-Am cars in the mix does not seem the same as 5 years ago. I mean if only some of those things were removed it would still felt like the same race, but now...

How many still agree with this sentence regarding PLM (wikipedia)
It uses the rules established for the 24 Hours of Le Mans by the Automobile Club de l'Ouest (ACO), which are slightly modified if necessary, mainly to allow additional cars to compete.

ANYWAY, despite all of this I will watch PLM as Road Atlanta is still unbeliavable & pure circuit, the support package is great and you can never completely get rid of the special atmosphere the event has. Size of the crowds makes 95% of the other sportscar events jealous

[fieldodreams79]

The change is just not needed. It's meddling for the sake of meddling and makes no damn sense no matter how you spin it.

I'll be there whether it's 5 hours or 10, 500 miles or 1000 miles and I'll enjoy myself unless there's 400 inches of rain in a day and I am simultaneously crapping in a port a lit every 2 hrs with no way to get home to my own toilet.