Need some help with Escort Mk1 1974 (Group 2 !!)

[jsvahn]

Im seeking for information about front and rear suspension on a racing Escort Mk1.

What was used in 1974 in Group 2 on Zakspeed cars and even earlier Broadspeed cars?

Front: what kind of uprights?
Rear: Coilover or torsion suspension?

Photos would help a lot ! Photos can be sent to johan(AT)johansvahn.com


Front upright used on Group 5 Escorts, but were they used on a GR2 Mk1 in 1974?


All help is welcomed!
Johan

[Al Weyman]

On the rear turreted 5 link with coilovers were de rigor in that period surely, never heard of torsion bars being used.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by jsvahn

Im seeking for information about front and rear suspension on a racing Escort Mk1.

What was used in 1974 in Group 2 on Zakspeed cars and even earlier Broadspeed cars?

Front: what kind of uprights?
Rear: Coilover or torsion suspension?

Photos would help a lot ! Photos can be sent to johan(AT)johansvahn.com
Front upright used on Group 5 Escorts, but were they used on a GR2 Mk1 in 1974?


All help is welcomed!
Johan

Hi Johan

I have pics of that upright on a Zak Gp5 Mk2 but also something similar (black & white photo) that is labelled as 'Mk1' but cannot confirm if that is correct or not. It also has compression strut and engine mount on chassis. Not sure (without re-reading) if App J allowed different upright but will check. There is no arb in pic (no engine either!) but a bracket on tca for it to locate to. Another black & white pic of rear end shows inboard coilovers, 4 short links and watts- but no dummy leaf springs which is odd unless photo taken out of period. There is also an arb clamped to the lower links which I believe is correct.

I also have several photos of an ex Broadspeed car torsion bar rear suspension. (Yes Al, it was tried for packaging reasons!) I don't think anyone apart from Ford and Broadspeed used this setup.

PM me if you want any photos.

Mike

[Al Weyman]

Blimey thats interesting about the torsion bar suspension, can't have done them much good!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Blimey thats interesting about the torsion bar suspension, can't have done them much good!

It was all about trying to squeeze biggest wheels and tyres possible between extended arches and chassis rail. The former could only be certain amount wider than standard body and chassis could not be removed. Ralph Broad was always thinking outside the box, not always gaining an advantage but certainly trying! BTW the torsion bars themselves reputably came off a Moggy 1000 or Marina. Although have only seen a genuine Zakspeed Mk1 well out of period (so don't know if original or not) it had coilovers mounted inboard of chassis rails and coming through boot floor. That car also had 'A' frame top links (as original Lotus Cortina but above diff)- with rubber handbrake gaiters where they went though floor- and no watts or panhard. Again, this could have been done out of period as have not seen any other evidence to suggest Zak used it.

[Gungebucket]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

It was all about trying to squeeze biggest wheels and tyres possible between extended arches and chassis rail. The former could only be certain amount wider than standard body and chassis could not be removed. Ralph Broad was always thinking outside the box, not always gaining an advantage but certainly trying! BTW the torsion bars themselves reputably came off a Moggy 1000 or Marina. Although have only seen a genuine Zakspeed Mk1 well out of period (so don't know if original or not) it had coilovers mounted inboard of chassis rails and coming through boot floor. That car also had 'A' frame top links (as original Lotus Cortina but above diff)- with rubber handbrake gaiters where they went though floor- and no watts or panhard. Again, this could have been done out of period as have not seen any other evidence to suggest Zak used it.

Aha! I remember torsion bar suspension on Escorts. In the early 1970's I worked for Wooding in Hamburg. Amongst other activities we ran a Mk1 Escort in touring car races in Europe. Over the winter of, I think it was 1971 but could have been 72, we built 2 new cars for the following year. The body shells were prepared by Maurice Gomm of Woking. We actually built 3 cars; one was for a custimer, Jorg Obermoser. These cars did indeed have crossed-over torsion bars for the rear suspension. They were 1300 Marina bars and we had various thickness ones machined down to give different spring rates. The torsion bar set up was indeed employed so that the widest possible rear wheels could be accommodated. The rules said that the original springs must still be in the same location but the size/material was free. Additional springs could also be employed so this set up did indeed comply with the rules. The "existing" springs were made of Teflon and were not attached to the axle, they were just there for show.
The cars were completed over the winter and testing carried out in the spring. The cars were excellent and everything was ready for the new season, cars, wheels, tyres, spares, big black Mercedes transporter.... everything. Unfortunately Wooding then went bust and the whole shooting match was purchased by a German guy who used to run a 1300cc Escort.... one Eric Zakovski (spellin?) i.e. Zakspeed. The rest is history!!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Gungebucket

Aha! I remember torsion bar suspension on Escorts. In the early 1970's I worked for Wooding in Hamburg. Amongst other activities we ran a Mk1 Escort in touring car races in Europe. Over the winter of, I think it was 1971 but could have been 72, we built 2 new cars for the following year. The body shells were prepared by Maurice Gomm of Woking. We actually built 3 cars; one was for a custimer, Jorg Obermoser. These cars did indeed have crossed-over torsion bars for the rear suspension. They were 1300 Marina bars and we had various thickness ones machined down to give different spring rates. The torsion bar set up was indeed employed so that the widest possible rear wheels could be accommodated. The rules said that the original springs must still be in the same location but the size/material was free. Additional springs could also be employed so this set up did indeed comply with the rules. The "existing" springs were made of Teflon and were not attached to the axle, they were just there for show.
The cars were completed over the winter and testing carried out in the spring. The cars were excellent and everything was ready for the new season, cars, wheels, tyres, spares, big black Mercedes transporter.... everything. Unfortunately Wooding then went bust and the whole shooting match was purchased by a German guy who used to run a 1300cc Escort.... one Eric Zakovski (spellin?) i.e. Zakspeed. The rest is history!!

Hi Gunge, good to hear from someone who was there at the time! This could be one of those cars- it is a Gomm shell and still about. (Not mine, unfortunately!)

[jsvahn]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

This should be the finnish car ex. Matti J. Kemiläinen.

[jsvahn]

Originally Posted by Gungebucket

Aha! I remember torsion bar suspension on Escorts. In the early 1970's I worked for Wooding in Hamburg. Amongst other activities we ran a Mk1 Escort in touring car races in Europe. Over the winter of, I think it was 1971 but could have been 72, we built 2 new cars for the following year. The body shells were prepared by Maurice Gomm of Woking. We actually built 3 cars; one was for a custimer, Jorg Obermoser. These cars did indeed have crossed-over torsion bars for the rear suspension. They were 1300 Marina bars and we had various thickness ones machined down to give different spring rates. The torsion bar set up was indeed employed so that the widest possible rear wheels could be accommodated. The rules said that the original springs must still be in the same location but the size/material was free. Additional springs could also be employed so this set up did indeed comply with the rules. The "existing" springs were made of Teflon and were not attached to the axle, they were just there for show.
The cars were completed over the winter and testing carried out in the spring. The cars were excellent and everything was ready for the new season, cars, wheels, tyres, spares, big black Mercedes transporter.... everything. Unfortunately Wooding then went bust and the whole shooting match was purchased by a German guy who used to run a 1300cc Escort.... one Eric Zakovski (spellin?) i.e. Zakspeed. The rest is history!!

Great story!! Thank you.
Remember anything about the front suspension? What kind of uprights were used?

[Al Weyman]

Agreed good tale but what erks me is how on earth they arrive at a set of regs where you can fit a teflon spring in thats unattached that does nothing and is legal. FFS just say the car has to sit on that spring and it has to be fully functional with no other springing media used. It just encouraged cheating and runaway success for some and a very unlevel playing field, never get my head around this.

[Robyn Slater]

Very interesting thread.

But, how does swapping the origional spring for a pseudo spring in the same mounts allow you to use wider tyres??

Al, its called development,if people didn't do it we,d all still be getting about on horse and cart.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Robyn Slater

Very interesting thread.

But, how does swapping the origional spring for a pseudo spring in the same mounts allow you to use wider tyres??

Al, its called development,if people didn't do it we,d all still be getting about on horse and cart.

Robyn, the leaf spring wasn't the problem, it was the outboard turrets Ford and others preferred because it placed the dampers as far apart as possible. Max wheel you can fit in that setup is 10". OK for rallying but for racing moving turrets inboard or using torsion bars allowed wider than that.

Al, leaf springs are heavy and don't allow simple rate changes. Rules said additional springs allowed as long as original type retained also. So make lightweight version of leafspring that doesn't affect rate and fit coils or torsion bars as well. Don't think Ford were doing anything others didn't do also........

Johan, sorry we havn't answered your questions as to what Zak used in 1974. Gungebucket may know more but there always seems to be great difficulty in finding info about the team and their cars. You need someone who was working for Mr Zakowski at the time. Good luck.

(Yes the pic is of the Finnish car.)

[Frank de Jong]

For waht I know, Zakspeed never used torsion bars (as said, Wooding did) but used coil springs (and retained a thin leaf spring). How they managed to stuff 13,5" rear wheels inside is a mystery to me...

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Frank de Jong

For waht I know, Zakspeed never used torsion bars (as said, Wooding did) but used coil springs (and retained a thin leaf spring). How they managed to stuff 13,5" rear wheels inside is a mystery to me...

Yes, would love to have been able to compare the inner arch and chassis of a Zak car with standard Escort. Even with large tubs and inboard turrets I reckon 12" max.........

[Al Weyman]

So whats wrong with using fibreglass leaf springs I fail to see why the rule writers at the time allowed another spring to be used thats all I am saying.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I fail to see why the rule writers at the time allowed another spring to be used thats all I am saying.

The fact is they did Al, and it was FIA, and 30 years ago now. Nothing we need to get into a lather about in 2011.

But this is all OT, the question was 'What set up did Zakspeed actually use in 1974?'

[jsvahn]

Front suspension:

What kind of top mounts were used in 1974? These should be the factory/Boreham top mounts..








Boreham Uprights? Racing or original??:

[morninggents]

I have a pair of TCAs very similar to these in my shed. Are they worth anything?

[Mike Bell]

Those stub axle carriers are special and look cast rather than machined? The top mounts are also different to any I have seen before. Moving the top of strut in that far would require different upright as well to correct geometry, so obviously designed together.

I have re-read 1971 Appendix J and it looks possible to fit different uprights and hubs- either under 'Optional equipment which may be recognised with a minimum production of 100 units per year- Reinforced suspension elements' or otherwise under 'Brakes of different type and/or dimensions, which may include larger hubs and spindles.'

The (not very good) picture I have of an upright shows a unit similar to yours, but maybe machined rather than cast. There is no clue as to when picture was taken, however.


MG- There seem to be lots of different types of track control arm- maybe worth something if could be proved they came off a famous car!

[morninggents]

Mike, my post was a bit tongue in cheek. The TCAs came from an Escort Mk1 I ran from 1975 to 1977 before it was stored then sold in the early 1980s. It had a Broadspeed shell with Broadspeed and Ford works suspension. The TCAs are alloy and virtually the same as those shown except for the hole for the ARB droplink. I must have had two sets and these didn't go with the car when I sold it.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

leaf springs are heavy and don't allow simple rate changes.

I beg to differ as far as rate changes. I have a very simple method that I have used for years allowing me to change to a wet setting in a few minutes ! but I'll never tell how

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Mike, my post was a bit tongue in cheek. The TCAs came from an Escort Mk1 I ran from 1975 to 1977 before it was stored then sold in the early 1980s. It had a Broadspeed shell with Broadspeed and Ford works suspension. The TCAs are alloy and virtually the same as those shown except for the hole for the ARB droplink. I must have had two sets and these didn't go with the car when I sold it.

So the tcas did come off a famous car then! Do they have a rose joint for locating to bottom of upright and can you recollect if the top mounts and uprights were also similar?

Zakspeed started out as a Broadspeed customer so it is quite possible that the arms are same, which could be of interest to Johan as it would suggest that the setup in his pictures is correct / original.

Gordon! I amend my earlier statement to: 'leaf springs are heavy and don't allow simple rate changes- unless your name is Gordon Streeter'.

[Robyn Slater]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I beg to differ as far as rate changes. I have a very simple method that I have used for years allowing me to change to a wet setting in a few minutes ! but I'll never tell how

Anglegrinder?????????

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Robyn Slater

Anglegrinder?????????

[morninggents]

A bit of soft rubber twixt spring and axle?