The modern myth

[Glen]

Lots of people seem genuinely to believe that the skill is going out of F1, and that as a result the quality of driver is less than in days of old. I've often read speculation that the drivers of today can't cope with "real" cars - that they can't change gear... you know, all that bull.

Did anyone see Darren Manning on "Pulling Power" last night? Driving a GT40 in an historic race at Goodwood. Absolutely thrashed the opposition, in a car that he is not used to. A big, physical muscle car.

OK, so the opposition weren't of the very highest level - but the interesting thing to me is just how brilliant any of the F1 drivers actually are when they get in another type of car. Look at Alex Yoong in the historic race at Monaco - he was leading by a long way until the car stuck in 5th gear. These are the two worst drivers in F1 this year. And people are daft enought to suggest that modern F1 drivers can only drive "computer assisted" techno-mobiles.

Any other recent examples?

[Lee Janotta]

Darren's just a tester, who's cut his teeth on some very different cars. He's already learned how to handle big V8 cars in ASCAR, and he did CART at Rockingham. A lot of F1 drivers, on the other hand, have never raced anything with more power than an F3000 car before.

[alchemy]

Glen, I totally agree with you... and I’m an old git!

[Airhead]

It's all just too difficult to call. How do you get any equivelancy?

[BootsOntheSide]

Are you confusing Darren Manning with Anthony Davidson? Both are BAR testers, but Darren's on track racing for most of the year has been in ASCAR, with one CART drive at Rockingham.

[Glen]

Oh yes, you're right - Darren Manning didn't even get a drive this year.

[Glen]

Originally posted by AMoffat
It's all just too difficult to call. How do you get any equivelancy?

This is a fair point - which makes me wonder why some people seem so firmly of the opinion that the quality of driving is not there any more. On the face of it there's no reason to assume that modern era drivers would be any less talented than any other era, yet many folks seem very convinced that there is no comparisson.

Yes the cars are superficially easier to drive (superficially because they are easier in some departments, and much harder in others) but there again the level of near-perfection we see now (mistakes are very rare, fitness levels are way beyond) is something to behold in itself. Not as easy to see on TV, but to be admired nonetheless.

[Aysedasi]

The reality, Glen, is that it really doesn't matter. Just as we will always have an interminable debate as to whether TGF is better than Senna, or Prost or Moss, or Fangio or........

These things tend to be linked in the mind with eras. I know who I consider to be the best driver of all time, but, then again, what does it matter. Same goes for any opinions about how good current F1 drivers are.

The only real conclusion you can safely draw is that in terms of spectacle, the current version of Grand Prix Racing can't hold a candle to versions of most past eras.




(IMO!)

[Bononi]

Couldn't say better, Aysedasi !!

The modern myth is computer controlled cars...

[f1manoz]

Which I think is the case...

[Sato san]

Originally posted by Glen
Lots of people seem genuinely to believe that the skill is going out of F1, and that as a result the quality of driver is less than in days of old.

i dissagree Glen .....yes i think that the skill has gone out of F1 to a certain extent .....but idont think we get a lesser quality of driver as a result . The drivers have driven their way to F1...its only when they got there do they have the cars to many things for them !

[Inigo Montoya]

I'm trying to stay out of trouble but... there is no way in heck that the skill is leaving F1. My reasons: (a) We all know that driving quickly is more than balancing throttle/clutch/brakes and shifting gears. Its more about finding the right line, setting up the car properly, etc. (b) the cars are faster than ever, subjecting the driver to ever-increasing lateral acceleration, (c) If the skill was really leaving F1, I would expect there to be an evening out of performances between teammates. There is still a relatively large gap in performances between drivers of disproportionate ability (e.g. Webber and Yoong). and (d) Have you seen the number of buttons on those steering wheels???

Juan Pablo was fast in a CART vehicle, and he is fast in an F1 vehicle. Its because he is talented - regardless of what he is driving.

[paul-collins]

Well, the cars are easier to drive - at the same speed as their predecessors. But the courses have become trickier (not "more challenging," trickier), speeds have come up, and so the drivers still have as much to do as before - just different things.

These guys are the best in the world - it's not like, when clutching was taken out of the equation, the drivers opted to just not use the left foot. They've shifted their resources to improve their performance.

Glen says "I've often read speculation that the drivers of today can't cope with "real" cars - that they can't change gear... you know, all that bull. " It's true, though - their performance with old machinery would be quite ordinary (initially, anyway). But not because they aren't up to the task - rather that it would be alien to them.

I've seen it said that anyone could win the WDC in an F2002, which is true so long as everyone else is in an FW24. As IM said, "If the skill was really leaving F1, I would expect there to be an evening out of performances between teammates" - or that there would be constant turnover of drivers, as you could just stop 20 random drivers on the Autobahn, take them to the track, and insert them into cars, and the performance wouldn't really suffer. But it would.

That said, no one on the grid (bar you-know-who) would compare to Gilles, Ayrton, Jimmy - but then, the savant is almost always alone in their world.

[KA]

Originally posted by paul-collins

Glen says "I've often read speculation that the drivers of today can't cope with "real" cars - that they can't change gear... you know, all that bull. " It's true, though - their performance with old machinery would be quite ordinary (initially, anyway). But not because they aren't up to the task - rather that it would be alien to them.

When Martin Brundle drove at Goodwood the first year, he wrote in Autosport about how difficult he found it to conme to terms with the handling and braking of a Jag D-Type, compared to guys like Jack Brabham or Stirling Moss in cars from the same era- his point was basically that the difference was that they understood from experience how to get good lap times from those particular cars, while he was having to learn it....

[Borzacchini]

Originally posted by Glen
" ...Look at Alex Yoong in the historic race at Monaco - he was leading by a long way until the car stuck in 5th gear."

And Alex was driving one of the oldest cars of the field. The other drivers were in '70s cars whilst he was driving a Lotus from 1969 (or was it '68?)!

[KA]

Originally posted by Borzacchini
And Alex was driving one of the oldest cars of the field. The other drivers were in '70s cars whilst he was driving a Lotus from 1969 (or was it '68?)!

I guess that's the difference between a professional F1 driver (even Alex Yoong) and amateurs who are basically racing for enjoyment- particularly when you bear in mind that some of the guys at the front end of a historic F1 grid (Martin Stretton, Flavien Marcais etc) aren't exactly slow......

Actually, I think Alex was driving an early 70's car- a Lotus 72, which is a more modern concept generally than the 60's cars-although that doesn't take much away from his performance- the car was still a few years older than a lot of those behind him in that race.

Takuma Sato drove the 1968/9 Lotus 49- like Alex he was faster than a lot of the more modern cars in qualifying at least- until he hit a barrier and broke the suspension.....

[neilap]

The easier something is the more difficult it is to excel at it. I don't think driving and F1 car is as difficult as before. I do feel however, that is it more difficult to find the fine line that is the perfect set up. There are so many more variables to consider.
The people that are fast now would have been fast then too once they got used to the equipment. Its like bodybuilding, they all take steroids so the playing field is still even. The best natural athlete is still the best on drugs. Its the same with cars, talent is not dependent on technical assistance, in fact it makes it more difficult to stand out from the crowd.

[Wrex]

If talents not important, where is my F1 drive?

[Liz]

It's not a matter of "talent" but of specialization. And it isn't just in racing cars.

When I first learned to type I used a manual typewriter and on one of those things a typing speed of 40 wpm was considered average for an office worker. On an electric typewriter, 70 wpm was considered acceptable. Today I use a computer and type 120 wpm, which is average for the kind of work I do.

And the REAL difference is that today a person need not know how to make hand corrections, fit two pages of writing onto one typed page, spell, punctuate or even know any grammar. The machine that allows me to type 120 wpm will also do all the rest of those things, too.

So in one sense the skill has gone out of the work of a typist. So have most of the jobs, because my computer and I can do the job of four typists and a research paralegal without getting off my chair.

Today's F1 car compared to the Lotus 79 is like a computer compared to a manual typewriter. The skill is different, and it DOES in fact eliminate a lot of skills people used to need and most of them, because they stick to their specialty, no longer do.

[Liz]

This doesn't mean that some people who do my kind of work know the difference between putative and punitive .