Button 'faster' than MS at the German GP? (merged)

gfm · 26 Jul 2004, 20:05 (Ref:1048122)

Have I got this right?

Button started his GP some 100 meters further back down the circuit than MS, so had this extra distance to travel to the finishing line.

And then he had to pass (one way or other) 11 other racers in order to get to 2nd place, these cars that MS didn't have to pass. We'll assume they each had to pass an equal number of back markers; is that right?

I bet when you run the maths, Jenson was actually right up with MS, as the final distance between them on the last lap was 8 seconds (Yes I know they back off on the last lap, so what was the gap on lap 63 say? The FIA site won't tell us. But as a guess, they both back off a pretty equal chunk.)

You guys with good brains can get a clearer picture than I, but it looks like Button's BAR for his 2nd place, might have enjoyed a 'faster' GP than MS's.

It does beg the question, was Schumacher flat out all the way or did he have some to spare? I think he probably did.

Cougar · 26 Jul 2004, 20:11 (Ref:1048127)

He had tons spare IMO

Jaxs · 27 Jul 2004, 06:51 (Ref:1048440)

The opposite side of the argument. TGB on the front of the grid and JB a number of metres behind, what was the difference in the distance at the start and at the finish?

Who covered the most distance in the least amount of time?

Was the distance between the drivers at the finish larger or smaller than the distance at the start?

Ladies and Gentleman, I rest my case.

**Peter Mallett** · 27 Jul 2004, 07:13 (Ref:1048453)

You haven't made a case. You've just asked a bunch of questions!

**Aysedasi** · 27 Jul 2004, 07:24 (Ref:1048458)

That's because there are no answers to this question.......

BootsOntheSide · 27 Jul 2004, 07:41 (Ref:1048471)

Considering how much extra fuel he was carrying in qualifying, and the high number of cars he had to overtake and lost time behind, I'm sure Jenson's overall apce was roughly equal to what Michael [i]showed[/]. When pushed Michael can step his pace up more, but he's rarely needed to this season.

Super Tourer · 27 Jul 2004, 08:23 (Ref:1048497)

Looking at the fastest laps.

MS f/l was 1:13.783 on lap 5 - so still pretty heavy on fuel - his first stop was on lap 10 - so MS was carrying 5 laps or so worth of fuel still.

JB f/l was 1:14.117 on lap 11 - his first stop was lap 14 -so JB only had '3 laps' or so worth of fuel in.

On ultimate pace JB was almost 4 tenths off MS with slightly less fuel in the car.

As Boots said, Schumacher barely has to break into a sweat during a race, so unless he bangs in a mega lap for 'fun' we don't get to see what he and Ferrari can really do. the fact that Ferrari have annouced that development on the car is now frozen, suggests they have plenty in reserve IMO.

Glen · 27 Jul 2004, 08:40 (Ref:1048510)

I don't understand how you "know" that Schumacher was not pushing all weekend. Looking at the performance of the other Ferrari I'd say he was pushing pretty hard. I think he may have had just a little in reserve, sure, especially since he controlled the race from the front and therfore had a more relaxing time of it - but that is not at all the same thing as saying that he was just cruising round, which is tosh, quite frankly.

BootsOntheSide · 27 Jul 2004, 08:59 (Ref:1048516)

Sorry about the botched HTML in my last post.

I'm pretty sure Michael's pace dropped after Kimi went out, suggesting that Michael didn't feel threatened after that time. Rubens just had a bad weekend, maybe he'd've done something with his 2-stop strategy from 7th but I just think he lacked pace (as did Sato)

Super Tourer · 27 Jul 2004, 09:23 (Ref:1048531)

The fact that MS set his fastest lap before Kimi's retirement and that Kimi still set the fastest prior to his wing failure does suggest that Michael was 'not sufficiently troubled' to have to up the ante anymore.

He didn't need to pass anyone via the pitstops in this race, so we didn't even see his pit window searing laps that we normally would.

Glen, I think 'cruise' in this context is a relative term, I don't think anyone is suggesting that MS was not putting in any effort, but with Ferrari and Michael their effort is always measured to the available threat.

If you look at the British GP, he set the fastest lap of the race on lap 14 - one lap before his stop on lap 15 - as he needed to gain track position via the stops.

Ferrari goes as fast as required to win, no more no less - which I am sure is a contributory factor in Michael's reliability. The German GP marked 50 races for MS since he has suffered a mechanical failure, a record every other team would love to emulate.

KC_BPF1 · 27 Jul 2004, 09:34 (Ref:1048536)

Also, Button lost about 7 second behind Sato, of all people...

jetsetter · 27 Jul 2004, 09:40 (Ref:1048540)

I think that Schumacher only went as fast as he had to & he had something in reserve if anyone had pushed him.

Kicking-back · 27 Jul 2004, 10:09 (Ref:1048565)

Button was not a serious contender for the win, Raikkonen may have been - but we'll never really know.

Glen · 27 Jul 2004, 10:17 (Ref:1048575)

Super T

I know all that - my point was that it seemed clear that this was a much closer run thing than Silverstone (where Bridgestone obviously had a big advantage - eg. the Sauber performance). Ferrari usually win by whatever is a comfortable margin and no more - they did not achieve what is normally felt to be that comfotable margin this time - I don't doubt that Schumacher could have found a little extra, but not the limitless amounts that they sometimes seem to have in reserve.

All in all it was clearly a close-ish race - and it does F1 no good at all if folk who should know better automatically claim that Schumacher has it so easy without thinking it through. He did not have it so easy this time and he won on driving as much as anything else (a fabulous qualifying lap being the finest moment - what a terrific lap that was).

fog_shadow · 27 Jul 2004, 14:04 (Ref:1048797)

it was a pretty special lap. however not as good as his qualifying lap at Bahrain imo.

anybody know where i can get a video of that and provides it will have to contend with me being their best pal for eternity.

fog_shadow

Mr V · 27 Jul 2004, 15:17 (Ref:1048855)

Quote:

Originally posted by fog_shadow

anybody know where i can get a video of that and provides it will have to contend with me being their best pal for eternity.

Fog, pm me your e-mail details, and over the next couple of days i shall endevour to capture it and send it to you.

(hotmail accounts and the like are no good unless you have a large amount of mb space)

Sabrina · 27 Jul 2004, 21:13 (Ref:1049222)

Not what you think, but I believe that if to Jeson Button had not
penalized it by the change of motor (that is obligatory so that
says the rules to it), had many chances to gain the race. GERMANY

Let us see...he went out of 3th but with the penalty they lowered it to the 13th in spite of all that I arrive from second in the race. I believe that the JB car tapeworm an almost perfect balance aside from which their strategies were excelent, I guess that we cannot come to
say that I arrive from second because combustible tapeworm after the Pole of the car is in closed park.

For that reason I ask to them You if you agree with migo or have
some difference with me....
Lot's of love four you.....
ME, Sabrina

JohnMiller · 27 Jul 2004, 21:18 (Ref:1049229)

tapeworm?

fast95pony · 27 Jul 2004, 21:36 (Ref:1049244)

Well , I should not have opened this while drinking milk.Most of it went up my nose during uncontrolled giggling

I've never seen a "car tapeworm" , let alone a "combustible" one after the Pole of the car is in closed park.

Sorry Sabrina. I don't mean to be rude or make fun.
It just sounded very funny when I read it.

Liam34 · 27 Jul 2004, 21:46 (Ref:1049251)

Sabrina's English is still much better than my Spanish.

It's hard to say if Jenson would have won if he started third. Maybe it wouldn't have been his "best ever drive" if he had been further up the grid. It's unlikely Michael actually drove as fast as he could have, so with Jenson closing in, Michael may well have gone faster, or used a faster pit strategy.
Perhaps if Jenson's engine didn't blow on Friday, it would have waited until the last lap in the race on Sunday and blown up then.

Formula 1 is full of what if's.

Cynic · 28 Jul 2004, 06:38 (Ref:1049484)

As a side issue, I'm puzzled as to why Ferrari have frozen development of the car. Yes it is the fastest out there, but on the few occasions TGF has had to really push, the car has looked distinctly ragged. I think the real indivator is the 8sec gap at the finish. How many times this year has Schumi crossed the line with a 20 or 30 sec gap in hand? Button and Raukonen both are definitely getting closer to Ferrari than at the start of the year. Ok, TGF is stilll likely to sew up both the drivers and manufacturers titles, but in terms of race wins I can see this decision coming back to haunt them over the rest of the season.

ovi · 28 Jul 2004, 20:16 (Ref:1050261)

HEY Fast95Pony,it was more than funny for me also what happen with your milk episod, ihope that this shall never happen to me, unless you'd gift me some of yours ... ha ha ha ...What happen with my english is passing to everybody who's learning a new language, don't you think...I kindly suggest you to learn some spanish...ha ha ha...would be then funny for me as well ha ha ha...Although, I hope you understand me, please...There are expressions in my mind that when I'm writing in english the meaning is totally diferent , so... I am really sorry!!! When I showed to my english helper she laughed as well so you're not the only one who ha ha ha and I have to admit I felt ashame...still ha ha ha!!! I wanna joke with you, for I remarked your good sense of humour even if sometimes is quite black your humour of course, yet it's delighted me...ha ha ha . I didn't think of you as rude one, if not as a jokin-funny one!!! I love exchanging opinions and/or impressions with you , so please carry on! Still I must admit that I really need your help,so... pleaseeee! HA HA HA

**Bononi** · 28 Jul 2004, 20:30 (Ref:1050271)

Ovi, your english is just fine, as we know you're learning. There are people from everywhere here, and for many, english is not their native language.

All you have to do is avoid such members like WREX, AdamAshmore, Amoffat and EERO... those guys are a bunch of old geezers looking for fun with innocent ferrets...

If you don't understand a thing in the phrase above, just forget it !

Sabrina · 28 Jul 2004, 21:01 (Ref:1050318)

Hi, unfortunately is not Ovi who wrote this message but Sabrina a friend of her wrong page... wrong time... wrong... uh... a **** a totally one so sorry for it! Please I need disperately for your help regarding how to delete a message when it is posted in a wrong page as it happen now to me!

[EDIT: Swearing is not allowed on this family forum, in any langauge

Thanks /EDIT]

fast95pony · 29 Jul 2004, 01:43 (Ref:1050464)

Again, I'm sorry. I did not mean to shame you. I just have a warped Monty Python type of humour.I only wish I spoke and wrote Spanish.My Spanish is limited to ordering beer,and asking directions to the bathroom..

...And now back to our regular , scheduled programming.

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