LMP2 to be Faster than LMP1

[Mal]

There is a very interesting article here via LMSR.net about the future potential of LMP2. They are saying that the engine rules are similar to next years F1 regulations, and this could lead to big steps in development of these engines and maybe even F1 teams using LMP2 cars as test beds to get around the F1 testing restrictions.

[RobertPrange]

Well even if the F1 engines fit into the LMP2 cars , these engines will never be interesting for endurance racing in terms of reliability and costs.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

Originally Posted by RobertPrange

Well even if the F1 engines fit into the LMP2 cars , these engines will never be interesting for endurance racing in terms of reliability and costs.

I disagree, Formula One is heading into an era where engines will soon have to last three or four grand prix weekends. Granted that isn't good enough for a 24 hour race but they could probably run full throttle quite happily for 1000km or 2 hours 45 minutes.

You're right on the cost issue though, but if people like Honda and BMW can pawn off a few blocks for 'test' purposes to some of the more established LMP2 teams it might not be a huge problem.

[JAG]

In the article he answers his own question, restrictors.

These will always peg the power of LMP2 to around 500-550BHP.

LMP1 will have 650BHP+

The article also assumes that F1 has space age technology that is far supperior to anyone else's.

The likes of JUDD, Cosworth, AER, Mugen, Audi all have ex F1 staff.

Sportscar engines also need to be much tougher, fuel efficient and produce far more torque than in F1.

Where does diesal come into this equation.

If F1 manufactuers had the choice, they'd all be using turbo engines not atmo V8s.

[paul-collins]

JAG's got it right. So long as the restrictors rule, the F1 engines won't have any significant leg up. (The restrictors act as rev limiters, which would render hydraulic valve actuation unnecessary)

It's an interesting extrapolation of the theory that Michelin is dominating F1 right now because of the endurance rules implemented and their participation in ALMS/Le Mans, though.

[Bentley03]

Very interesting, but at this stage there is no hard evidence to support the theory.

I take it this is the article ss_collins has been referring to over the last few months!!

[JAG]

In fact, if anything, the F1 manufactuers would be leasing their redundant V10s to sportscar teams rather than the V8s.

Especially someone like Ford.

[ss_collins]

the V10's are no use. - the F1 V8 really is a possibility, breathing through a restrictor is indeed an issue however even with them a 750kg 550bhp car taking on a 900kg 650bhp car...

the sportscar manufacturers have ex F1 staff - but not F1 resources - I promise you a restricted F1 V8 will produce far more power than any current LMP2 unit. (I researched this with an F1 engine company - and its sound...)

I strongly reccomend you check out Racecar Engineering on a regular basis as we have a lot of very very good sportscar stuff coming up - and no this is not the one I was on about bentley.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

.......and no this is not the one I was on about bentley.

Excellent!!

I like this kind of speculation, and I'll look forward to reading the article.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I strongly reccomend you check out Racecar Engineering on a regular basis as we have a lot of very very good sportscar stuff coming up - and no this is not the one I was on about bentley.

At least give us a clue? Something to do with the new economy/envioromental award at Le Mans?

'the V10's are no use. - the F1 V8 really is a possibility, breathing through a restrictor is indeed an issue however even with them a 750kg 550bhp car taking on a 900kg 650bhp car...

the sportscar manufacturers have ex F1 staff - but not F1 resources - I promise you a restricted F1 V8 will produce far more power than any current LMP2 unit. (I researched this with an F1 engine company - and its sound...)'

The V10s are fine for LMP1, this is were the Judds originate from. The LMP2 may be competitive when it comes to power to weight ratio, and may well be up at the front of the field on short, twisty tracks. At Le Mans however they are left behind, as we have seen with the Zyteks/MGs over the years.

Thats before considering the fact that small, highly stressed engines are more likely to go pop over a long race distance.

I would also think that the likes of Audi, Peugeot, Nissan, whoever, in fact, have as much resources as all but the very select few at the head of the F1 field.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by JAG

I would also think that the likes of Audi, Peugeot, Nissan, whoever, in fact, have as much resources as all but the very select few at the head of the F1 field.

That may be so but they are not willing to commit the money to use the hi tech materials that F1 does.

[paul-collins]

I don't see that this will ever happen. It might have happened with the 675 weight, but there's a weight-to-displacement function happening here that means anyone who's sufficiently interested in winning just has to pour enough into P1 and it will always be faster than P2. I just don't see the incremental gains in P2 using F1 tech as being enough to offset an Audi-esque effort. All it will do is drive out any and all privateers from both classes.

...then again, if Bernie is encouraging it, that might be the point.

[Félix]

We have 540-550 hp LMP2s taking on 520 hp (Audi press release number) ballasted LMP1s at Le Mans and those are still a bit faster on the straights (lower drag from old regs) , and faster on the lap overall. Imagine a real new-P1 car with curent LMP2 drag, but 650 horses to carry it around. Unless Porsche builds a closed and powerful P2, no contest.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Mal

That may be so but they are not willing to commit the money to use the hi tech materials that F1 does.

But F1 only uses these materials because the regs are so restrictive in other areas.

Audi will get far more benefit from using a less high-tech turbo V8, and perfecting technology such as FSI.

F1 is all about max revs/power which do not neccessarily apply to sportscars.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by JAG

But F1 only uses these materials because the regs are so restrictive in other areas.

Audi will get far more benefit from using a less high-tech turbo V8, and perfecting technology such as FSI.

F1 is all about max revs/power which do not neccessarily apply to sportscars.

Agreed,

But if F1 adopt the proposed one engine for 5 races rule then the engines may well be relavent to LMP2 and that is the point of the original article

[paul-collins]

That may be so (that the engine would be compatible with P2). I just think it's unlikely that having F1 engines in P2 makes them de facto faster than anything that a dedicated firm could do in P1.

As I said, the differences in the class are structural, and as soon as someone wants to win outright against those using F1 engines in P2 they'll design a P1 powerplant that will outdo it.

Let's face it, F1 engines are revving at twice what a GT3RSR motor is doing to develop their power, which is more than bespoke P2 and P1 engines are doing. Restrictors will peg the F1 engines back to the same range of revs; that will completely change the way the engines are developed.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

That may be so (that the engine would be compatible with P2). I just think it's unlikely that having F1 engines in P2 makes them de facto faster than anything that a dedicated firm could do in P1.

As I said, the differences in the class are structural, and as soon as someone wants to win outright against those using F1 engines in P2 they'll design a P1 powerplant that will outdo it.

Let's face it, F1 engines are revving at twice what a GT3RSR motor is doing to develop their power, which is more than bespoke P2 and P1 engines are doing. Restrictors will peg the F1 engines back to the same range of revs; that will completely change the way the engines are developed.

Gotta agree with this. Certainly it would be interesting to slot a new-regulation F1 engine into a LMP2 chassis as they would fit the rules. But regardless, there is no getting around the restrictor which pegs power to somewhere around 500-540 hp for LMP2. There is simply no getting around the way the restrictor limits the amount of air that the engine breathes. So your high-revving F1 engine will have massively wasted potential in that it will never be able to achieve the revs that make it a 800 hp engine in F1 (reportedly the new-regulations F1 motors will be turning beyond 20,000 revs and better than 800 hp--so much for regulations designed to limit power...)

[ss_collins]

I toured an engine plant today and saw a few prototypes lumps in development, one older one aimed at 675 that never raced - an lo and behold what did I see - a 2.4 V8!!

actually I'm leading you on a bit there - as this lump is really for baby protos, but the engine gurus said the thoery was sound - plus that F1 moves on much faster and is perhaps 10 years ahead of sportscar tech - now put the restrictor on a 10 year old engine and a current engine...

technology does not stand still - if it did I would be out of a job!

as I said its just a thought and won't happen in the current climate. Anyone who wants to get a look at racecar engineering come and find one of us in the paddock area (or merguez places in that vicinty) and we will have some plus I will bring some to the tenths meet on saturday. I'm open to suggestions for features too...

Mike I think you already have a copy.

[JAG]

'plus that F1 moves on much faster and is perhaps 10 years ahead of sportscar tech - now put the restrictor on a 10 year old engine and a current engine... '

That may be true for atmo sportscar engines, but the tech in F1 is aimed at achieving higher revs/power, which are not requied in sportscars due to the restrictors. You also have to consider costs for customer teams.

In recent years most factory teams have used turbo engines, an area that the likes of Audi, Toyota, AER and the WRC manufactuers are the leaders in.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I toured an engine plant today and saw a few prototypes lumps in development, one older one aimed at 675 that never raced - an lo and behold what did I see - a 2.4 V8!!

actually I'm leading you on a bit there - as this lump is really for baby protos, but the engine gurus said the thoery was sound - plus that F1 moves on much faster and is perhaps 10 years ahead of sportscar tech - now put the restrictor on a 10 year old engine and a current engine...

technology does not stand still - if it did I would be out of a job!

as I said its just a thought and won't happen in the current climate. Anyone who wants to get a look at racecar engineering come and find one of us in the paddock area (or merguez places in that vicinty) and we will have some plus I will bring some to the tenths meet on saturday. I'm open to suggestions for features too...

Mike I think you already have a copy.

Hi Sam. Actually Charles is putting mine in the mail, though I will probably see him before it arrives over here as I leave for Le Mans this Tuesday. You'll be there as well? I'll say hello.