Why did Hill join arrows for 1997?

[Born Racer]

He had a few other offers on the table, but went with Arrows. The inevitable suggestions got made by some that he had done it for the salary, but I've always found tricky to grasp the notion that a competitive driver who has given his all to get into the best racing situation he can would sacrifice that once in the premier series for some extra money.

In any case, would TWR have had enough money to pay him more than the other teams were offering? But Arrows had never shown much potential, so why join them?

Nonetheless Damon drove a cracker in that year's Hungarian race. What an awful finish

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

He had a few other offers on the table, but went with Arrows. The inevitable suggestions got made by some that he had done it for the salary, but I've always found tricky to grasp the notion that a competitive driver who has given his all to get into the best racing situation he can would sacrifice that once in the premier series for some extra money.

I think it was about money. Jo Ramirez told in his biography that when Newey came to McLaren he persuaded them to give an offer to Hill (this was for 1998, of course). Hill declined as they (Hill and his manager that is) thought the offer wasn't suitable for a world champion because the salary was performance-based.

[Born Racer]

To be fair to Damon, he pointed out, it might have been in his book 'My Championship Year', that when a driver places quite some emphasis on the salary they expect, it is not solely to do with the money itself, but the statement of a driver's value in the market that the salary makes.

[BootsOntheSide]

Damon's was one of the less impressive championships ever won. He had a dominant car and a rookie team-mate. His starts were frequently appalling, and he still didn't clinch the title before the final race.

He took 8 years to reach F1 after starting racing. When he did he was beaten by his long-forgotten first team-mate Eric van der Poele, and largely fell into the Williams drive after Frank's fumbled attempt at signing Hakkinen for 1993, and only really kept it for 4 years due to a shortage of available topline drivers. He then had the huge advantage of working with 3 former world champions in his first 2 years.

He's clearly a nice chap, who did very well to hold Williams together after Imola, but he's overrated as a driver. Diniz outqualified him at Spa (perhaps the ultimate driver test) in 1997...

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Diniz outqualified him at Spa (perhaps the ultimate driver test) in 1997...

But nowhere else really. That was an impressive qualy by Diniz but throughout the year Hill was the one with the performances, as you would expect.

[Adam43]

Damon found out about losing his drive in Williams in 1996 too late for anything good in 1997. I think there is some confusion between 1997 and 1998 here. Damon took the Jordan drive instead of the McLaren drive, which was probably a mistake, but as mentioned above there was a little bit of McLaren taking the Michael over the details. Which is all fair enough; they only wanted him if he was a bargain and he wanted more than they wanted to pay him. So a deal didn't happen.

I am suprised that someone has taken the opportunity to stick the boot in to Damon when it is not really the topic of the thread and will probably send the thread off on a tangent. The Diniz at Spa thing is an interesting single example chosen, especially as the following year there is another example at Spa where Damon (Jordan) out qualified Michael Schumacher (Ferrari)! Spa is perhaps the ultimate driver test...

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

He's clearly a nice chap, who did very well to hold Williams together after Imola, but he's overrated as a driver. Diniz outqualified him at Spa (perhaps the ultimate driver test) in 1997...

I'm sure you could delve into the career of any racing driver, and highlight at least one session in which they went slower than an inferior competitor. Hill started motorsport late, which accounts for his unspectacular early record, but in his time at Williams he grew into a genuinely impressive Grand Prix driver. Not one of the all-time legends, but a deserving world champion.

[BootsOntheSide]

What I was saying really reflected his potential value to McLaren or another top team for 1998. Damon would be 37 at the start of that season, whereas Coulthard was young and still improving. Could Damon really have beaten Mika in equal machinery? Maybe Spa was a one-off, but so was Hungary, at that is continually dragged up.

[elspethhardie]

I'm glad DH went to arrows because it was the year my Mums company sponsored them and he turned up to thier company BBQ! Great man, so glad I got to met him.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Maybe Spa was a one-off, but so was Hungary, at that is continually dragged up.

I thinks it a bit different when a one off is almost winning in an Arrows and the other is out qualifying a team mate

[steve nielsen]

the Bridgestone tyres made the Arrows look better than it was in 97.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

What I was saying really reflected his potential value to McLaren or another top team for 1998.

OK.

Damon would be 37 at the start of that season, whereas Coulthard was young and still improving. Could Damon really have beaten Mika in equal machinery?

Probably not, but then DC didn't.

Maybe Spa was a one-off, but so was Hungary, at that is continually dragged up.

Dragged up? Ah, the old one wrong justifies another. I'm going to drag Jerez qualifying up too: Damon was good.
The 1997 Arrows was up and down the grid because of the tyres and it is very unusual for anyone to always out-qualify their team mate.

[Paulaweybridge]

Morning guys,

A certain Michael Schumacher won the F1 World Championship in 1994 and 1995.

By rights Damon should have been at least a double world champion, possibly triple.

In 1994 Schumacher cheated his way to the title and in 1995 Damon was somewhat psyched out by the German.

BUT Damon was runner-up in both 1994 & 1995.

Paula Hamilton

[Adam43]

And before that destroys this thread, let us return to the interesting topic in hand:

Why did Hill join arrows for 1997?

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Why did Hill join arrows for 1997?

A lack of available opportunities elsewhere, and an admiration for Tom Walkinshaw.

[nycuk]

Wasn't there some talk at the time of a stake in the TWR F1 operation, or some kind of managerial role?

[karimbo]

The question should be:

Why did Williams not retain WDC Hill and let him go?

Answer is simple: Rothmans wanted Villeneuve to win a title. It would have been impossible for JV with Hill as a team mate. So they got rid of Hill, hired an obscure german driver (who never won anything and dissapeared a few years later) in order to serve the title to JV on a silver platter. Rothmans got what they wanted, Williams got the money from Rothmans and everything went according to plan.

[mountainstar]

I think if one forgets the 20/20 retrospect and looks at it from the 1996 position, it is quite different. We were not far removed from when walkinshaw had helped turn benetton around. At that time his reputation was still intact. Hill didn't have many choices and I think he bought into the whole TW thing and really did believe it would pan out.

Ultimately, I think Hill should have sat out 1997 and tried to get a better drive for 1998. Also if I remember the Mclaren deal was $2 million salary and $1 million per race win. I think he was a fool not to take that.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by karimbo

So they got rid of Hill, hired an obscure german driver (who never won anything and dissapeared a few years later) in order to serve the title to JV on a silver platter.

A bit harsh on Heinz-Harald Frentzen. At the time, he was regarded as World Championship material, following a superb pre-F1 career and some solid drivers in the Sauber. As for never winning anything, he actually won 3 Grands Prix and came close to winning the title for Jordan Mugen-Honda in 1999.

[maximus]

He did have an offer from Jordan though I'm sure of it, and as it turned out the 97 car wasn't a bad one either, I would have liked to see what Damon could have done with it....

[BootsOntheSide]

There was talk of Jordan having made an offer for him. The 1997 Jordan proved to be a good car. He presumably thought Arrows offered more long-term.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

and largely fell into the Williams drive after Frank's fumbled attempt at signing Hakkinen for 1993,

Who wasn't first choice either. Frank was going for Mika because Prost veto'd Senna's drive for 1993. (Senna went on to moan about it, which was highly hypocritical as he had done the same thing whist at Lotus iirc)

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

He then had the huge advantage of working with 3 former world champions in his first 2 years.

He hadn't worked with any WDC (former or otherwise) when he helped develop the FW14 and turn it into a WDC winning car.

Damon was regarded as the best developement driver in the pit lane and imo deserved his drive in the Williams.

Not to go majorly off topic (sorry Adam ) but Damon, came so close to the 1994 title until "that collision", he could have well been WDC, this could have lead onto a WDC in 1995 (who know's what confidence of winning a WDC could do for a driver) then add that to the 1996 title that he deservedly won (don't forget, 8 wins to JV's 4, qualified on the front row of the grid 16 times out of 16, so he certainly wasn't slow in a car that he mainly developed) and he could have ended up a 3 times WDC.

Anyway, that's all hearsay, it didn't hapen.

Back on topic....

Why did he sign for Arrow's in 1997? Only he knows, Jordan offered him a drive for 1997, but the Peugeot motor hadn't exactly seemed a good engine in the back of the Jordan in 1996 or the McLaren in 1995. Maybe that was a factor? But then the Yamaha engine never exactly set the world alight either.

Maybe it was the money? But i'm sure Benson and Hedges would have stumped up more to have the reigning WDC in their car, and #1 on the nose cone?

Maybe Damon had more confidence in Tom Walkinshaw?

Again, we will never know.

But, as was mentioned, he is the only Arrow's driver in history to have come that close to a victory, but Damon always went well at Hungary.

What was more impressive to me was qualifying 4th at Jerez, 0.05 of a second off Villeneuve, Frentzen and Schumacher (who, remember all set identical lap times)

[GolddustMini]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

A lack of available opportunities elsewhere, and an admiration for Tom Walkinshaw.

thats probably the best answer.


i have alot of respect for damon, after getting into f1 post senna, it was him v's schumacher and well my support was going to go to damn, i liked him as a person and as a driver, very agreeable person. it was great in those final few years of his f1 career to see him fighting for wins in what wasnt the top machinery.

that and we havent had a british driver like him since, david never shone as he should although he got close to it, jenson isnt topclass. that said it looks like lewis will eclipse him if his career continues like his first 6 races!


damon was good guy and no one could not smile or cheer at the tv when he crossed that line in japan in '96

[Knowlesy]

Yes, Damon had offers from Jordan and Arrows (possibly Stewart too?) for 1997.

Damon said at the time he thought Tom Walkinshaws record in the sport as a whole would see Arrows at the front of the grid within a few years. That, I believe, was fundamentally the reason Damon chose Arrows. He was wrong, but he took a gamble many wouldn't have done.

A great man was Damon, well worthy of his champion status. The sport could do with a few more!

[Sev]

Originally Posted by Paulaweybridge

Morning guys,

A certain Michael Schumacher won the F1 World Championship in 1994 and 1995.

By rights Damon should have been at least a double world champion, possibly triple.

In 1994 Schumacher cheated his way to the title and in 1995 Damon was somewhat psyched out by the German.

BUT Damon was runner-up in both 1994 & 1995.

Paula Hamilton

Ok, I'm sorry, but that's frankly ridiculous. I know this is de-railing the thread, but...

True, arguments can be made about the 1994 season. There's two sides to it, and I'm not going to take either one. It's certainly not clear cut. However, as for claiming that Hill should have won the 1995 season, except that he was "psyched out". Seriosly, wtf?

He was in a vastly inferior car, and is almost undisputably an inferior driver as well. The 1995 season was one of the most dominated seasons in recent history, certainly until the Ferrari era. There was no way that Hill (or franky, anyone in that car), in any state of mind, could have done to won that title.

------

Back on topic:

My impression with Hill was that the Arrows drive was as much centered around advertising and money as anything else. Whilst he no doubt demanded a huge pay cheque, he almost certainly would have brought in a large amount as well.

Despite being a WDC, his career was clearly on the wane, and I can't see another major team really being intrested in his services. McLaren may have made an insulting offer for him, but frankly, without serious options following the highest bidder was a perfectly sensible move for him.