VAG and Diesel

[werner]

There has been a lot of moaning that the enginerules favore diesel-engines to much and therefore are unfair. But I realized that the VAG-group are very succesfull with their dieselengines in every race or serie they enter. In June they won the Le Mans 24h, they won the ALMS in the States, in november they won the WTCC-title, and yesterday the Dakar-rally. Are the guys at VAG not just very good at making diesel-engines.
That leads to the question, was BMW just bluffing when they said their car would be so good when powered with a dieselengine, it would blow everybody away?
The diesel-powered BMW's in the Dakar-rally had large problems with overheating anyway.

[Captain VXR]

Originally Posted by werner

There has been a lot of moaning that the enginerules favore diesel-engines to much and therefore are unfair. But I realized that the VAG-group are very succesfull with their dieselengines in every race or serie they enter. In June they won the Le Mans 24h, they won the ALMS in the States, in november they won the WTCC-title, and yesterday the Dakar-rally. Are the guys at VAG not just very good at making diesel-engines.
That leads to the question, was BMW just bluffing when they said their car would be so good when powered with a dieselengine, it would blow everybody away?
The diesel-powered BMW's in the Dakar-rally had large problems with overheating anyway.

SEAT tdi weren't reliable in the BTCC last year although they were quick

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by werner

That leads to the question, was BMW just bluffing when they said their car would be so good when powered with a dieselengine, it would blow everybody away?

That was my opinion from the start. VAG are really the guys pioneering Diesel in racing and kicking butt for years already. If BMW could have matched them, there would have been less talking, more engine switching.

[Gil Abobeleira]

You seem to forget that BMW was the first make to put a diesel engine on a touring car and win the Nurburgring 24h some 10 or so years ago (before the advent of the GT's on the Nordscheleife).

[stedevil]

The matter really isnt if BMW has a Diesel engine or not, but if it's competitive enough or not, especially on short sprint distances.

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by werner

The diesel-powered BMW's in the Dakar-rally had large problems with overheating anyway.

Had Al-Attiyah not been disqualified or Terranova not been dumped, their BMWs could have done important challenge to leading VWs and Mitsubishis. And they did: Al-Attiyah was a temporary leader and Terranova was usually on top ten before his abandon.

[werner]

Al Attiya was disqualified because he missed a few waypoints. Why do you think he missed them? Becuase his engine was so hot it wouldn't be able to get over the high dunes.

[Dead-Eye]

And don't forget the Dakar BMWs aren't a works effort - and VW struggled for a couple of years to get the Race Touareg to where it's now.

It's obviously a conscious decision by VAG to promote the Diesel in as many forms of motorsport as they can. But I'm not sure if they are really better than everyone else or if it's mostly because have more experience now.
Remember, BMW were (probably) the first to win a major race with a diesel car when a 320d won the Nürburgring 24h in 1998.

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by werner

Al Attiya was disqualified because he missed a few waypoints. Why do you think he missed them? Becuase his engine was so hot it wouldn't be able to get over the high dunes.

And Terranova? He lasted until Atacama desert on the Chilean stages, most than half of the event. And abandoned not precisely by his engine, just because he flipped upside down.

[werner]

Well, I have followed the Dakar-rally, not superclosely, but watched the telly every day, and I haven't heard of this Terranova. I therefore conclude that he was not good or important enough to show his performance to the Dutch viewer.

[FIRE]

Terranova was top 10 level (like Kuipers) but not a threat to VW.

Mitsubishi used a diesel this year but had a lot of problems.

[Valenok]

Audi won ALMS because they're single strong LMP1 team. Another case - Le-Man and LMS - they were very lucky

[werner]

Peugeot was indeed very strong. They are good with diesel to. Come on Peugeot, do the WTCC in a 407 diesel! With several diesel-powered cars, it is easier to check if the rules are unfair or the manufacturer has just done a good job. And more manufacturers is nice anyway.

[helterskelter]

I had an interview with Jorg Muller, Priaulx and Zanardi, and they all told me the same thing: how would BMW, who has almost 60 320si E90 racing all around the world, tell those people that they have to change their engine at cost of thousands of euros, otherwise they can even throw their cars away? Truth is, the BMW Wtcc programme is mainly supported by racing car sales, like Zanardi told me, so they have to be fair when treating their customers. BMW customers can win championships, like Priaulx showed in 2004, Seat customers can't even win races (look at Corthals). Seat is more inclined to sell the Leon MKII, which is another great way to find money to run the Wtcc works cars, but it's a different commercial strategy. BMW is not lying, the car was 1.2 seconds quicker, and the reason why they don't use it is the one I mentioned above. Also, you have to note that it was an old engine, not a developed one. You are completely entitled not to believe BMW, but I have heard it in so many different places that I completely believe that, and it was also reported on many websites and even on paper. Your choice...

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

it was also reported on many websites and even on paper.

On paper and websites I can claim i can run faster than a BMW TC can drive. But can I actually prove it? Fact still remains, if BMW wanted to prove it, they could have just put the diesel in for 1 race for 1 driver. They chose to just talk instead...

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I had an interview with Jorg Muller, Priaulx and Zanardi, and they all told me the same thing: how would BMW, who has almost 60 320si E90 racing all around the world, tell those people that they have to change their engine at cost of thousands of euros, otherwise they can even throw their cars away? Truth is, the BMW Wtcc programme is mainly supported by racing car sales, like Zanardi told me, so they have to be fair when treating their customers.

To a certain extent I can understand BMW but on the other hand the chassis of the petrol and diesel SEAT cars are the same. The only difference is the engine and some minor bodywork changes. So customers don't need to throw away their cars. And you don't need a diesel engine to win races in independent class or even overall (see Coronel in Japan).

Originally Posted by helterskelter

BMW customers can win championships, like Priaulx showed in 2004, Seat customers can't even win races (look at Corthals).

Priaulx is a BMW customer?
Coronel has won a race. He and Corthals also beat several times independent BMW drivers. And there aren't that many BMW customers (I mean real customers like Wiechers and Proteam, not RBM/BMW UK) that have won races. You must not forget there were only 1 or 2 SEAT customers in total in most seasons.

[helterskelter]

Yes, Priaulx was not a works driver when he entered the Fia Etcc and was still not on the level of team Schnitzer until 2005, with the Wtcc era starting. It's all written in Andy Priaulx's autobiography. Of course he is now, are you kidding me?

Now, please let's look at it from a customers' point of view: BMW runs the 320d, so the BMW 320si does not get anymore updates. Also, BMW sells the diesel cars now, which cost, let's say, 15,000€ more than the petrol car, new bodywork included, plus more expensive engine revisions and all that. So, the BMW customers who can afford to buy the diesel win the championships, the petrol BMWs are behind them; when the petrol BMW drivers bought the car they expected it to be competitive and to only have to update them in a very light way, certainly not a major change like the engine. If BMW does put the diesel in, then 60 cars will be good for a museum, as they will not be competitive anymore against the twin sister diesel powered cars. So, then the worst possible scenario, but not unlikely at all, is that BMW loses customers, has no more money to put into the touring car segment, pulls the plug, the World Championship loses 5 works cars and lots of indies. You're only looking at it from a Wtcc point of view, but try to imagine if, for instance, Btcc gets Team RAC with a 320d and Jackson with a 320si, and Turkington wins the title while Jackson struggles cause he had less money than team RAC. Same for every single national championship. It's not about winning races, but about winning titles, which is totally different. Coronel (who is actually a semi works driver) won races, Corthals won races in the indies, but look at the guys who won the championships: Coronel (BMW), Hennerici (BMW), Coronel (SEAT), d'Aste (BMW), Hernandez (BMW).
Of course Seats are competitive, too, but imagine if a diesel Leon came into the indipendents' trophy. The possible solution is BMW to stop selling their cars, but then where will they get the money to run the Wtcc programme the way they do? That's what BMW drivers and technical directors, particularly Zanardi, explained to me.

[stedevil]

helterskelter, what you write makes sense, but only if we assume a TDI BMW outperforms a petrol BMW and a Seat TDI on TC sprint distances. But where is the proof for this? I cant find any. And do trust a good marketing department to be able to turn "Our TDI is too slow" into a "We would win everything if we used our TDI" official statement.

[Matt]

Why do you call every diesel car a TDi? That's a VAG term. Just call it diesel/diseasel.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Matt

Why do you call every diesel car a TDi? That's a VAG term. Just call it diesel/diseasel.

Turbo Diesel Injector I dont know any other technology in common use that would be relevant for racing and 3 letters is nice and short to write.

[Matt]

Just write TD or D.

[stedevil]

OK

[helterskelter]

I call diesel car TDi cause it's shorter, but TD is ok
True, there is no proof, except that BMW drivers (Jorg Muller and Augusto Farfus, actually) say they tried the TD in Oschersleben and it was 1.2s quicker than the petrol car. I believe that it makes sense that BMW doesn't race with the TD car because of its large involvment in customers' racing. But the discussion is pointless, it's all about believing what BMW drivers say or not; I believe them and therefore think what I wrote, but everyone is entitled not to believe them and think differently. I understand it's a personal matter.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Yes, Priaulx was not a works driver when he entered the Fia Etcc and was still not on the level of team Schnitzer until 2005, with the Wtcc era starting. It's all written in Andy Priaulx's autobiography. Of course he is now, are you kidding me?

But still I don't think you can compare BMW UK/RBM with Wiechers, Carly Motors or Proteam.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by FIRE

But still I don't think you can compare BMW UK/RBM with Wiechers, Carly Motors or Proteam.

In 2003 Priaulx won the BMW award for best non-works driver of the year: do you still have doubts?
Of course BMW Team GB (The way it was called in the Etcc days) is different from Carly and Proteam, it had support from local dealers, but it's different from being a works driver!
Anyway, in my opinion, Proteam would be a good works team for any manufacturer, I know them closely and they're so professional...